submitting a mix to a label?

[Ermz]

Well I'm not going as far as calling the idea strange, or even impractical. It's just that everybody seems to have a different perspective on the situation. Perhaps this is a lesson that's best learned the hard way. After I lose a label job or two due to the working methods i employ now, the sting of pride might bring the clarity that I lack. Don't know.

EDIT: I'd love to hear more about the Randy Staub mix. If there was no limiting involved, how was the 'hotness' achieved? Stages of bus compression, light clipping in stages etc.? Some added perspective would be great.

 

[James Murphy]

it's also Andy that has told me over and again, every time i've broached the subject with him, to just deliver a balanced mix, and it was Roadrunner Records that wasn't happy when i couldn't deliver un-limited mixes for mastering... so i remixed, doing it very much how you just described, Ermin... so yeah, my mix was a bit out of whack w/o the limiter... and guess what, they didn't like it, said it was unbalanced... and hired someone else to mix. not the only time i've come face to face with this issue either.

i check my mixes with a limiter too, but if your mixes fall apart when you remove it , something is wrong with your mix. i can tell you this, i've heard loads of unmastered mixes from guys like Staub, right on down the line... including from andy... and they always sound good and well balanced... no crazy loud snare, or anything like what you are on about right now.

i'm guilty of asking some mix engineers to mix their drums, especially snare, louder.... so that when i limit it will balance out a bit... but only when the mixer wasn't that great, and i didn't have time to explain to him how to properly mix.. not that you can do that over the phone anyway. it was a matter of expedience.

look... do what you want, but saying things like "in this day and age" regarding things like this just sounds to me like your saying "in this day and age it's ok to not be able to mix without practically mastering it.

i think andy said he checks his stuff... not sure he meant that he performs his whole mix with the limiter on the whole time. Andy, like me though, does master a lot of his own work, so it's important and fine to work that way.... but his mixes don't fall apart when you bypass the limiter.

yours shouldn't either.

 

[Ermz]

Okay, thanks James. I guess that's some food for thought.

When mixing with nothing on the master bus.. or say just a compressor for some added squeeze, how do you reference your work, or gain perspective on how it will sound maximized?

I usually start a mix with nothing on, then add a bit of comp and limiting and then I find after the greater perspective I just leave the limiter on and keep mixing that way, but once a few hours pass I'll remove said limiter and the mix will be a bit out of whack.

Is there something, some techniques, some methods we need to be using? If Staub's sounded hot, but wasn't at all limited, does that come down to fine compression and control on a track-per-track basis, or perhaps staged compression on individual tracks and then busses, or perhaps heavy master bus compression, or just a factor of all 3 in stages?

Is it perhaps because limiting is something not usually employed in the mastering process, but rather other techniques? The software limiters are notorious for burying snares, so people tend to mix drum loud in order for their mix to sound balanced after the fact. I guess my ultimate question is, if we can't tell how the mix will roughly sound after maximization, how can we be sure we're giving the ME enough to work with? On my 'normal', no-bus processing mixes everything can sound balanced, but as soon as I add some form of maximization drums start getting buried etc.

Anyway, thanks for the insight. It's something I'll try to be mindful of when I do my next mix and see if I can somehow pull it off.

 

[lolzgreg]

Is there something, some techniques, some methods we need to be using? If Staub's sounded hot, but wasn't at all limited, does that come down to fine compression and control on a track-per-track basis, or perhaps staged compression on individual tracks and then busses, or perhaps heavy master bus compression, or just a factor of all 3 in stages?

I was thinking on the terms of what Ermz just said completely.

James, I think you may have missed my point to an extent. I'm not saying the stuff I do falls apart when I take off my limiter, or that you should have an excuse why it should, but the drum tracks definitely do stick out more. When a mastering engineer "compresses" the mix, in whatever way they do, you're going to lose impact from the drums., correct? This is especially true in getting levels to a "commercial loudness."

I very rarely put even a decibel of "in-gain" on my master bus limiter. I've learned that HP'ing is one of the greatest ways to get headroom from a mix.

What do YOU do James?

 

[digitaldeath]

Defo one of the better discussions taking place here at the moment!

 

[gabriel g.]

I´m about to finish my first label full length.

The CD will be mastered by someone else.

I mixed everything without any mastering effects. I made sure everything is under -6 to -10 dB on the master channel.
When I was happy with the mix I put my usual mastering chain into the project and bounced the tracks but just for CHECKING!!!!

After that I send the ME the unmastered aiff to let him check if everything is cool for his workflow.

 

[James Murphy]

Welcome back James.....I just don't think ppl know how to take you sometimes...

yep, thx... back thanks to better moderating.

anyway, the only "ppl" that don't know how to take me are the trolls, newbies, and others that just want to be told that they are doing everything just perfectly and shouldn't make any changes at all.... the type that get pissed when i suggest they perhaps should consider a change, which i only do when it seems like they want advice and i have some type of experience on the subject being discussed... but that lot don't really want anyone's advice, they seem to just want validation, and tend to read clearly stated advice that's not embellished with loads of "smileys" and "just my opinion" bollocks as an attack... not my problem.

back to the matter at hand, Ermz... limiting, when used as your only tool for getting LOUD, can definitely adversely affect your master. here's my tip... don't pull any more than about 3db tops (def NOT average) on your limiter (i'm usually pulling less, more like 1.5). more than that and it's going to start affecting your drums, mix level withstanding.... because that's what a limiter does... it keeps audio from going above the set threshold. so, if your mix is unbalanced and the snare pokes out, and you set your threshold low enough to catch that snare... well there you go. but if you have a well balanced mix, and gain-stage properly, you can use the limiter for what it's for... and still get competitive levels.


note... when i say "pulling", i'm referring to GR.

 

[digitaldeath]

Ermin: In what way are you "shaping" your mixes before sending them to Plec? Are you also giving him the PT sessions so he can so some very slight remixing prior to mastering if necessary?

 

[digitaldeath]

James, would you mind discussing the differences with how you work compared to what you know of say, Plec's work and the different results that are achieved?

 

[James Murphy]

no, i can't discuss that.. because i don't know how Plec works.. other than what ermin has said he does with his mixes... hell i've done the same with some people's mixes.... doesn't mean that i wouldn't prefer a well-balanced mix to start with. sorry.

 

[digitaldeath]

no, i can't discuss that.. because i don't know how Plec works.. other than what ermin has said he does with his mixes... hell i've done the same with some people's mixes.... doesn't mean that i wouldn't prefer a well-balanced mix to start with. sorry.

Understandable, no ME should have to do the AE's work, but it's good to know that ME's are open to "fixing" certain things themselves. Any MEs that I've worked with just assume the mix is perfect as is.

 

[Charles J]

Is there something, some techniques, some methods we need to be using? If Staub's sounded hot, but wasn't at all limited, does that come down to fine compression and control on a track-per-track basis, or perhaps staged compression on individual tracks and then busses, or perhaps heavy master bus compression, or just a factor of all 3 in stages?

Anyway, thanks for the insight. It's something I'll try to be mindful of when I do my next mix and see if I can somehow pull it off.

I'd go out on a limb and say you're probably right in your assumptions. Proper gain-staging and multiple stages of the right compression will get you there.

It probably comes down to Staub knowing exactly what to listen for and REALLY being able to 'hear' compression accurately, which for a lot of people, is not the case. Most don't stick w/this whole game long enough to really wrap their heads around compression and how exactly it's changing or perhaps, how it COULD shape your sound.

Just my 2cents, I know EQ plays a big role as well and blah blah, but I think you get my point.

 

[PhilTheBeard]

i know i have learned something from reading this thread. haha