A History Question

[Wheezer]

There seems to ba a European fascination with JFK and his assassination. I'm curious why that might be. Saxon has "Dallas 1 PM", it crops up a bit in Vanden Plas' Beyond Daylight here and there, and, of course, the Stones' Sympathy for the Devil. I think there's a couple more but I can't quite remember them right now. Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill or is there some tie that I'm unaware of?

 

[Wyvern]

Well actually I do recall a Saxon interview in which Biff comented about the impact of JFK assassination. I guess that even in the early days of TV and comunnication satellites the 60's with JFK and the Moon landing really started global communication.

You have to acknowledge the fact that (and I'm not going to start a pollitical discussion) being USA the real or so called icon of democracy a magnicide in it's soil is something that hits hard on the subconscious mind. In general terms the murder of a political figure (moroever when is not a dictator) always have an impact IMO.

I'm sure Hawk will be able to extend the discussion over

 

[JonnyD]

I think of most US presidents JFK was one of the more well liked ... as far as I know in Germany they still replay the speach he made to the West Germans 43 years ago ....

I am proud to come to this city as the guest of your distinguished Mayor, who has symbolized throughout the world the fighting spirit of West Berlin. And I am proud to visit the Federal Republic with your distinguished Chancellor who for so many years has committed Germany to democracy and freedom and progress, and to come here in the company of my fellow American, General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis and will come again if ever needed.

Two thousand years ago the proudest boast was "civis Romanus sum." Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is "Ich bin ein Berliner."

I appreciate my interpreter translating my German!

There are many people in the world who really don't understand, or say they don't, what is the great issue between the free world and the Communist world. Let them come to Berlin. There are some who say that communism is the wave of the future. Let them come to Berlin. And there are some who say in Europe and elsewhere we can work with the Communists. Let them come to Berlin. And there are even a few who say that it is true that communism is an evil system, but it permits us to make economic progress. Lass' sie nach Berlin kommen. Let them come to Berlin.

Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us. I want to say, on behalf of my countrymen, who live many miles away on the other side of the Atlantic, who are far distant from you, that they take the greatest pride that they have been able to share with you, even from a distance, the story of the last 18 years. I know of no town, no city, that has been besieged for 18 years that still lives with the vitality and the force, and the hope and the determination of the city of West Berlin. While the wall is the most obvious and vivid demonstration of the failures of the Communist system, for all the world to see, we take no satisfaction in it, for it is, as your Mayor has said, an offense not only against history but an offense against humanity, separating families, dividing husbands and wives and brothers and sisters, and dividing a people who wish to be joined together.

What is true of this city is true of Germany--real, lasting peace in Europe can never be assured as long as one German out of four is denied the elementary right of free men, and that is to make a free choice. In 18 years of peace and good faith, this generation of Germans has earned the right to be free, including the right to unite their families and their nation in lasting peace, with good will to all people. You live in a defended island of freedom, but your life is part of the main. So let me ask you as I close, to lift your eyes beyond the dangers of today, to the hopes of tomorrow, beyond the freedom merely of this city of Berlin, or your country of Germany, to the advance of freedom everywhere, beyond the wall to the day of peace with justice, beyond yourselves and ourselves to all mankind.

Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when this city will be joined as one and this country and this great Continent of Europe in a peaceful and hopeful globe. When that day finally comes, as it will, the people of West Berlin can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines for almost two decades.

All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Berliner."

President John F. Kennedy - June 26, 1963

Source: http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/berliner.htm

 

[carnut]

Well, I don't think it's about liking or not liking a president. It was one of the first times that such horrific images were send around the world. People allover the world were shocked by them. And offcourse all the stories surrounding the murder makes this event fascinating for alot of people...

 

[Death Animal]

conspiracy

 

[JonnyD]

Well, I don't think it's about liking or not liking a president. It was one of the first times that such horrific images were send around the world. People allover the world were shocked by them. And offcourse all the stories surrounding the murder makes this event fascinating for alot of people...

I do agree with what you are saying there! But JFK was very popular and very charismatic and I do think that had some to do with the impact personally ... I think in the scope of US presidents he wasnt so bad .. getting us caught up in Veitnam wasnt so bright but he couldnt of fucked it up any worse than LBJ did ... but he also got things going with the Civil Rights movement ... He was a Better man then GWB could ever be atleast ... shit what was the topic

 

[Hawk]

Well, I don't think it's about liking or not liking a president. It was one of the first times that such horrific images were send around the world. People allover the world were shocked by them. And offcourse all the stories surrounding the murder makes this event fascinating for alot of people...

I don't think that had anything to do with it buddy. It has to do the with political views in Europe. Here in Europe the republicans are the creepy right-wing bad guys and the democrats are the left-wing humanitarians.

Especially if they are relatively young like JFK and Clinton. Living in Europe you would never know that JFK hated communism and was a fervent believer in the domino theory. And that why the bay of pigs incident happened and thats why its was good old JFK that was the first president of the US that started a real involvement in Vietnam by sending military advisor's to help the government of South-Vietnam.

A quote from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war

"The Kennedy administration remained essentially committed to the Cold War foreign policy inherited from the Truman administration. Furthermore in 1961 Kennedy found himself faced with a three-part crisis that seemed very similar to that faced by Truman in 1949–1950. 1961 had already seen the failure of the Bay of Pigs invasion, the construction of the Berlin Wall, and a negotiated settlement between the pro-Western government of Laos and the Pathet Lao Communist movement. Fearing that another failure on the part of the United States to gain control and stop Communist expansion would fatally damage the West's position and his reputation, Kennedy was determined to prevent a Communist victory in Vietnam. 'Now we have a problem in making our power credible', he said, 'and Vietnam looks like the place."

Some would like to believe that Kennnedy was on the verge of pulling US troops out of Vietnam when he was assasinated. (Oliver Stone offers the most famous version of this theory in his film "JFK".)

However, Robert Kennedy made clear in 1964, when the war was not yet unpopular, that his brother had no such intentions. (The interview excerpts below are from the Third Oral History Interview with Robert F. Kennedy, April 30, 1964, New York, New York, by John Bartlow Martin, for the John F. Kennedy Library.)


From an interview with his brother Robert:

RFK: He had a strong, overwhelming reason for being in Vietnam and that we should win the war in Vietnam.

Interviewer: What was the overwhelming reason?

RFK: Just the loss of all of Southeast Asia if you lost Vietnam. I think everybody was quite clear that the rest of Southeast Asia would fall.

Interviewer: What if it did?

RFK: Just have profound effects as far as our position throughout the world, and our position in a rather vital part of the world. Also, it would affect what happened in India, of course, which in turn has an effect on the Middle East. Just, it would have, everybody felt, a very adverse effect. It would have an effect on Indonesia, hundred million population. All of these countries would be affected by the fall of Vietnam to the Communists, particularly as we had made such a fuss in the United States both under President Eisenhower and President Kennedy about the preservation of the integrity of Vietnam.

Interviewer: There was never any consideration given to pulling out?

RFK: No.

Most people in Europe think Nixon was a fanatical warmonger when it was under Nixon that the war ended as a result of the peace talks in Paris.
Nixon wanted to end that unpopulair war as soon as possible.

It was the democrat Johnson that let the war escalate and really believed in it.

JFK like Clinton after him was a icon in Europe because they represented the good guys. Presidents like Europe likes to see them. Presidents that favor active state intervention in the economy.

Never mind that JFK had lots of affairs, never mind what Clinton did. Both of them are still very popular in Europe. Almost every town in Holland has a Kennedy street and some of the smaller villages as well. There is even a Kennedy march near Eindhoven every year.

In short, in Europe democratic presidents are popular and republicans are disliked. This means democratic presidents will become icons in Europe irrespective of what they achieved or what their policy was. Even to a point that at least in Europe, history gets re-written as in the case of JFK.

My take on it? I dislike all politicians. They are all a bunch of money grabbing thieves.

 

[JonnyD]

Bravo!!!!

 

[Hawk]

Bravo!!!!

 

[JonnyD]

once again translating most of what I was thinking in a intelligent way! I only used the JFK speech in Germany as an example of why he was popular in europe and still is ... For me when it comes to voting for the lesser of two evils its usually a Democrat ... they are all scum but atleast all Bill C. lied about was a blow job and that didnt lead to a war

 

[Wheezer]

In short, in Europe democratic presidents are popular and republicans are disliked. This means democratic presidents will become icons in Europe irrespective of what they achieved or what their policy was. Even to a point that at least in Europe, history gets re-written as in the case of JFK.

My take on it? I dislike all politicians. They are all a bunch of money grabbing thieves.

Cool! Thanks! I suspected it was something like that but in nowhere near the detail you gave.

Government is necessary, in my opinion, but I don't think politicians are necessary to govern. I am not fond of them either.