Another Ephel Duath track for download
- Thread starter Lee_B
- Start date
Emi
underdog
Emi
underdog
"technical question" to Lee: so it's possible to order the album also from USA even if the cd will be out there only the 17th June?
I think so. There's nothing on the Earache webstore saying that US orders will be held until the 17th June, though it may be an idea to send an email to sales@earache.com to confirm.
Lee
Lee
Russell
__
LuminousAether
My name is Distance
I've had the leaked version for a while, but rest assured that I will purchase it when I get the money and when I find it.
Hmmm. I had the promo CD mastered with 100 index points to try and stop it getting leaked on the net. Seems someone either got hold of a full copy somehow (doubtful.. the only copies I sent were to booking agents and people like that) or some bored bastard actually spent some time putting the pieces togther!
LuminousAether
My name is Distance
Well, all you have to do is use Nero and you can put the mp3s together pretty easily.
But I don't see why you'd want to stop mp3s as the mp3 boom is by far the best thing that could ever have happened to underground metal. It's like tape trading made almost impossibly easy, a band like Ephel Duath in the past would be very unknown outside their home country, but now they are quite well known because of services like Winmx where I see people in the metal chatrooms spreading the joy of post black metal like it was going out of style. I'm sure some people will just keep the mp3s and not buy the cds, but not me. I'd much rather have a hard copy, and almost all the awesome albums I've had on mp3 I've bought (unless I'm strapped for cash, then I buy them later). I think that used cd stores would represent a bigger dent in sales for a record label anyways, as almost all the college students I know buy used cds instead of new ones, and from what I understand you record label gents don't recieve one red cent from those sales. Hell, almost all the used cd stores I know sell promos... and that seems quite negative to record labels to me. I just think the mp3 thing is entirely misrepresented.
But I don't see why you'd want to stop mp3s as the mp3 boom is by far the best thing that could ever have happened to underground metal. It's like tape trading made almost impossibly easy, a band like Ephel Duath in the past would be very unknown outside their home country, but now they are quite well known because of services like Winmx where I see people in the metal chatrooms spreading the joy of post black metal like it was going out of style. I'm sure some people will just keep the mp3s and not buy the cds, but not me. I'd much rather have a hard copy, and almost all the awesome albums I've had on mp3 I've bought (unless I'm strapped for cash, then I buy them later). I think that used cd stores would represent a bigger dent in sales for a record label anyways, as almost all the college students I know buy used cds instead of new ones, and from what I understand you record label gents don't recieve one red cent from those sales. Hell, almost all the used cd stores I know sell promos... and that seems quite negative to record labels to me. I just think the mp3 thing is entirely misrepresented.
Russell
__
LuminousAether said:
I'm not intending to start a debate here (one that's been done countless times many places in UM
) but I'd just like to point out Lee is actually damn good with MP3s comapred to most labels.. Hence this thread, and songs from all of the bands on his roster on the elitist website I think the promo was probably split into 100 tracks to stop the people who, as you so rightly say, will download the leaked album and then not buy it..
LuminousAether
My name is Distance
Well, I think the best things with mp3s are bands like Puissance who put their albums up for download for free, so you can find out if you like it before you buy it. I mean, an album could easily have one or two good songs and a bunch of really crappy songs, and the good songs are the samples. I've actually had a lot of experiences with situations like that where I bought a cd after hearing a song I liked and then thought the cd was garbage otherwise and I never listened to it again. I prefer to avoid situations like that as I have very limited funds and I would theoretically rather buy albums that I think are awesome instead of albums that I think suck ass. In lieu of this, I download the whole album now and listen to it a few times before I buy it, so I don't waste my money.
I do agree with your comments but it works both ways. I see the use of MP3's as a promotional tool entirely, but downloading entire albums is nothing short of theft.
I happily post one or two songs from each album for people to sample, and I promote the links across the world as best as I can. This should give people enough to base a judgement on whether the music is the type of thing they would like to buy. If someone likes the samples, and then goes ahead and downloads the entire album from the net, in 8 cases out of 10 I'll be losing a sale. I believe you're in the minority when it comes to actually buying a hard copy.
The problem is hitting smaller labels much more than the Majors. And you have to realise how major labels work in order for that to make sense. They will happily press 200,000+ copies of a CD and give it to the stores at a discounted rate. Or will offer some sort of deal (buy 4, get one free.. I've even heard of buy one, get one free deals). But these guys have the benefit of airplay and mainstream promotion and your average Joe is going to be happy shelling out his $15 or whatever.
Metal is different entirely. There's a lot of competition in a very small scene. The promotion and marketing is limited and expensive. I would usually have to sell 3000 copies of an album to break even, and sometimes that just doesn't happen. The figures go higher if the band wants to tour (a support slot on the last European Dark Tranquillity tour would have cost $15000 if I had wanted it for instance - that means I would have to gamble on selling another 3000 CDs on the basis of that tour just to cover the costs).
I agree that MP3s have been great in spreading the word, but when you're at that small to medium level each sale really counts. Word of mouth helps, but most people wouldn't be aware of a band like Ephel Duath unless we did what we did. Like pressing and mailing 1000 promo Cds to send to journalists for review, arranging (and paying for) interviews, paying for advertising, paying for tracks on magazine cover Cds, paying for showcase shows and tours and also paying the wages of the people who do all the stuff behind the scenes. If things stay the way they are a lot of the smaller labels will go out of business, meaning that bands who are prepared to experiment are going to have to fund their own activities and will probably get lost in the ether, listened to by only a handful of fanatics.
It's a question of quality control in a lot of cases. I do my best to sign the best possible bands, but my own tastes don't always tally with those of the public at large. If I didn't have a day job at IBM and was funding the label myself (and not with Earache's cash) I would have lost my house by now.
I'm not going for a sympathy vote, but I think people should be aware that most labels, especially "underground" or "experimental" ones, barely break even, if at all. Bands taking the jump to 10000+ sales are getting rarer and rarer, but the only way to achieve this jump is by having a label behind you who can work the press and the system and use their contacts to the benfit of the band.
My argument is that if someone hears an MP3 sample from an Elitist band and doesn't like it, then fair enough. But if they like it and then download the entire album, there's a pretty good chance they won't buy it because they already have it ripped to CD.
It's tough out there for small labels right now.
I happily post one or two songs from each album for people to sample, and I promote the links across the world as best as I can. This should give people enough to base a judgement on whether the music is the type of thing they would like to buy. If someone likes the samples, and then goes ahead and downloads the entire album from the net, in 8 cases out of 10 I'll be losing a sale. I believe you're in the minority when it comes to actually buying a hard copy.
The problem is hitting smaller labels much more than the Majors. And you have to realise how major labels work in order for that to make sense. They will happily press 200,000+ copies of a CD and give it to the stores at a discounted rate. Or will offer some sort of deal (buy 4, get one free.. I've even heard of buy one, get one free deals). But these guys have the benefit of airplay and mainstream promotion and your average Joe is going to be happy shelling out his $15 or whatever.
Metal is different entirely. There's a lot of competition in a very small scene. The promotion and marketing is limited and expensive. I would usually have to sell 3000 copies of an album to break even, and sometimes that just doesn't happen. The figures go higher if the band wants to tour (a support slot on the last European Dark Tranquillity tour would have cost $15000 if I had wanted it for instance - that means I would have to gamble on selling another 3000 CDs on the basis of that tour just to cover the costs).
I agree that MP3s have been great in spreading the word, but when you're at that small to medium level each sale really counts. Word of mouth helps, but most people wouldn't be aware of a band like Ephel Duath unless we did what we did. Like pressing and mailing 1000 promo Cds to send to journalists for review, arranging (and paying for) interviews, paying for advertising, paying for tracks on magazine cover Cds, paying for showcase shows and tours and also paying the wages of the people who do all the stuff behind the scenes. If things stay the way they are a lot of the smaller labels will go out of business, meaning that bands who are prepared to experiment are going to have to fund their own activities and will probably get lost in the ether, listened to by only a handful of fanatics.
It's a question of quality control in a lot of cases. I do my best to sign the best possible bands, but my own tastes don't always tally with those of the public at large. If I didn't have a day job at IBM and was funding the label myself (and not with Earache's cash) I would have lost my house by now.
I'm not going for a sympathy vote, but I think people should be aware that most labels, especially "underground" or "experimental" ones, barely break even, if at all. Bands taking the jump to 10000+ sales are getting rarer and rarer, but the only way to achieve this jump is by having a label behind you who can work the press and the system and use their contacts to the benfit of the band.
My argument is that if someone hears an MP3 sample from an Elitist band and doesn't like it, then fair enough. But if they like it and then download the entire album, there's a pretty good chance they won't buy it because they already have it ripped to CD.
It's tough out there for small labels right now.
LuminousAether
My name is Distance
Well, I can guarantee that I have shown at least 20 to 30 people Ephel Duath that would never have heard of them otherwise through services like WinMX, and if only 2 - 3 buys the album, that's still 2 - 3 sales that you would not have had. I think the real number would be a lot higher, closer to 10 - 15. I'm just one person to, I know plenty of people that promote bands such as Ephel Duath. In fact, The Painter's Palette has seen quite a bit of discussion and such, and that is ALWAYS a good sign that the record will sell. I mean, it's nowhere as much as the discussion that the new Deftones is receiving, but it's more than other bands like Solefald and Manes, which I think fit into the same post black metal scene.
LuminousAether
My name is Distance
But, 3,000 doesn't seem like much to expect. Didn't even Maudlin of the Well sell more than that? If Paradise Lost can sell over a million copies, Ephel Duath should hopefully sell at least 3,000.
Well for every MotW, I bet that label has some acts that barely scape the 1000 mark.
I suppose I personalized my argument a bit too much. I'm in the fortunate position of having Earache's backing and the distribution and marketing that goes with it. If I had started from scratch I'd be in trouble.
With Ephel Duath we've also got the backing of the press and they're doing a lot of interviews and things now. We don't expect the album to do less than 3000. Far from it.
A lot of other labels aren't so fortunate.
The majority of people out there don't buy from underground mail orders or direct from labels. They'll download an album and then go to their local HMV or whatever to buy it, only to find it's not there and will end up buying something else instead. And this isn't down to lack of effort on the label's part. Most distributors of note won't even consider taking a label on until there's at least 10 albums across the catalogue.
To put things into perspective, the original version of the first Ephel album Phormula sold less than 1000, and that was after 60,000 downloads on MP3.com and seeing it on many people's hard drives on things like Direct Connect. This had nothing to do with the label's efforts, but everything to do with the fact that the label was in it's infancy with only 2-3 releases at the time.
While Paradise Lost did indeed sell 1,000,000 albums at the time (I'm still scracthing my head about that one...), such a thing is unlikely to happen again on an indie label. If they'd have had the same hype in today's market, they wouldn't have even got half those sales. Back then people had little choice but to buy the CD from the stores. Now they can get it from the Net for free...
I suppose I personalized my argument a bit too much. I'm in the fortunate position of having Earache's backing and the distribution and marketing that goes with it. If I had started from scratch I'd be in trouble.
With Ephel Duath we've also got the backing of the press and they're doing a lot of interviews and things now. We don't expect the album to do less than 3000. Far from it.
A lot of other labels aren't so fortunate.
The majority of people out there don't buy from underground mail orders or direct from labels. They'll download an album and then go to their local HMV or whatever to buy it, only to find it's not there and will end up buying something else instead. And this isn't down to lack of effort on the label's part. Most distributors of note won't even consider taking a label on until there's at least 10 albums across the catalogue.
To put things into perspective, the original version of the first Ephel album Phormula sold less than 1000, and that was after 60,000 downloads on MP3.com and seeing it on many people's hard drives on things like Direct Connect. This had nothing to do with the label's efforts, but everything to do with the fact that the label was in it's infancy with only 2-3 releases at the time.
While Paradise Lost did indeed sell 1,000,000 albums at the time (I'm still scracthing my head about that one...), such a thing is unlikely to happen again on an indie label. If they'd have had the same hype in today's market, they wouldn't have even got half those sales. Back then people had little choice but to buy the CD from the stores. Now they can get it from the Net for free...
Emi
underdog
well, as you probably know, I own and run code666 records, which is exactly the kind of label Lee is speaking of: an underground label focusing on weird, original and extreme bands willing to make the next step up and become a small "professional" label.
Unfortunately, I don't have Earache behind, I'm alone with no money, no big promoters, no big Tours, just myself, my ideas and my taste.
and I can assure you, that mp3, peer to peer and free downloading is killing me and all my bands, just because we NEVER reach the break even of our albums.
sure, almost all my bands are now quite well known in the underground, because with interent it's a lot more easy to do promotion, and mp3 helps out A LOT, so everybody is talking now of Aborym, Manes, Aghora, Ephel Duath, Rakoth, Negura Bunget, etc... but the "hype" around that band is not the same if we look at how many albums those bands are selling, just because, as Lee pointed out, people prefere to download the new Manes for free instead of buying it, it's normal, I mean we are all humans and I know that something "Free" is always tempting... I love music too much for not buying it, but for example I will "download" for free comics if that would be possible, or whatever other stuff I'm interested in.
but doing this, I must be aware that I'm killing what i like, I'm killing the music I love, and in few time there will be no more original weird extreme bands.
so please download mp3, even the entire album, but ALWAYS buy it if you like it.
Unfortunately, I don't have Earache behind, I'm alone with no money, no big promoters, no big Tours, just myself, my ideas and my taste.
and I can assure you, that mp3, peer to peer and free downloading is killing me and all my bands, just because we NEVER reach the break even of our albums.
sure, almost all my bands are now quite well known in the underground, because with interent it's a lot more easy to do promotion, and mp3 helps out A LOT, so everybody is talking now of Aborym, Manes, Aghora, Ephel Duath, Rakoth, Negura Bunget, etc... but the "hype" around that band is not the same if we look at how many albums those bands are selling, just because, as Lee pointed out, people prefere to download the new Manes for free instead of buying it, it's normal, I mean we are all humans and I know that something "Free" is always tempting... I love music too much for not buying it, but for example I will "download" for free comics if that would be possible, or whatever other stuff I'm interested in.
but doing this, I must be aware that I'm killing what i like, I'm killing the music I love, and in few time there will be no more original weird extreme bands.
so please download mp3, even the entire album, but ALWAYS buy it if you like it.
This is turning into a great thread, lots of useful info from both Emi and Lee.
I come from the old school of metal myslef, pre-internet, where I would spend entire Saturdays in record stores with friends scouring through new releases to buy. For some reason, CD's were cheaper then also (which I still do not understand) and while I am guilty of downloading myself (having a fast computer and high speed internet helps) I always buy the artists releases.
As most of you might now, I am big Negura Bunget fanboy and I received promos for the new record from Code666, but I also bought 3 copies of it from the band itself and gave it to friends. Granted I do not usually do this, but I always try to actually buy the record of a band I really like.
Lately, it seems that packaging has a lot to do with making a decision on purchasing. Negura for example, went all out with this as you all know. You HAVE TO HAVE that CD with the package, otherwise you loose the "feel" for it.
I mean even big bands like Metallica, with guaranteed sales, have to give an incentive to people to buy. They are doing an elaborate package for the new release and are including a full lenght live DVD of them playing the record in the studio. Plus I hear it will be specailly priced too.
Now, I personally, was not planning to pick it up, but now I am sold and will.
I think this release will pay for the houses of al the band members and both you and Emi You gotta believe ...
And Emi ... don't be shy ... it's OK, you can say it www.code666.net/webstore :Spin:
I come from the old school of metal myslef, pre-internet, where I would spend entire Saturdays in record stores with friends scouring through new releases to buy. For some reason, CD's were cheaper then also (which I still do not understand) and while I am guilty of downloading myself (having a fast computer and high speed internet helps) I always buy the artists releases.
As most of you might now, I am big Negura Bunget fanboy and I received promos for the new record from Code666, but I also bought 3 copies of it from the band itself and gave it to friends. Granted I do not usually do this, but I always try to actually buy the record of a band I really like.
Lately, it seems that packaging has a lot to do with making a decision on purchasing. Negura for example, went all out with this as you all know. You HAVE TO HAVE that CD with the package, otherwise you loose the "feel" for it.
I mean even big bands like Metallica, with guaranteed sales, have to give an incentive to people to buy. They are doing an elaborate package for the new release and are including a full lenght live DVD of them playing the record in the studio. Plus I hear it will be specailly priced too.
Now, I personally, was not planning to pick it up, but now I am sold and will.
I think this release will pay for the houses of al the band members and both you and Emi
You gotta believe ...And Emi ... don't be shy ... it's OK, you can say it www.code666.net/webstore :Spin:
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