anybody here today?

maidenman

United We Stand
Apr 16, 2001
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0
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West Palm Beach, FL
hometown.aol.com
i am soooooo stressed from watching the news. The past few days have been a news over load!

so is eveybody else feeling like this?

I was thinking of doing somerecording today just to get my mind off this for a while

i dig the new color

hope all is well with you guys
 
I've been really stressed. I keep switching from channel to channel trying to find something new.
I thought about coming here and posting over the last few days, but everytime I started to write something I found that I couldn't really put into words how I felt.

On Wednesday, we drove to SanFrancisco since it's the biggest city around where I live to try and get a feel for the magnitude of what happened. I know that the WTC buildings were some of the tallest in the world, and setting in our car looking up at these huge buildings and looking around at the mostly empty streets, an eery feeling.
I've never seen the streets in the city that empty, I know that I probably should have stayed home, but I needed to find some way of coming to an understanding of what had happened.
The explanation for why the towers collapsed has been very confusing to me. As I understand it, the force of the collision didn't cause it, but the resulting fire weakened the structural steel enough that the buildings buckled under their own weight.
Why, didn't the fire protection systems work? Shouldn't the fire protection systems have been triggered?
I know that the jet fuel burned at temperatures that may have been extremely hot, but in case of arson, where an accelerant of some sort would be used, wouldn't there be similar extremes?
Maybe, I just don't have a grasp of the facts, but am I supposed to believe that a fire at the top of any of these large structures can overwhelm any fire protection systems causing the steel to weaken....and.....
A terrible thought.
Another thing I've been thinking is that our government keeps spending money on study after study exposing how vulnerable we are to specific kinds of attacks, and I believe that these people are using those studies as a bluprint for how to attack us. In effect we are giving them the information they need.
Anyhow, these are just some of my thoughts that I've been trying to make some kind of sense of.

James.
 
yeah Hyde i feel you man.

I've been news searching too. Any bit of new info is great. Unfortunatley we'll be in the dark for a long time i think. I do feel better that the Fed's have moved at such a rapid pace arresting people. We have a buch in "custody".

As for the collapse, your right the fire weaked the steel which lead to the fall. I dont think any fire protection system could have put out jet fuel, at least not as much as those 2 planes were carrying.

I also have to give Bush some credit. Now keep this in mind, I'm not a fan of him at all nor did I vote for him, but. He seems very upset as a person not a politician, which i respect. The footage of him standing with the rescue workers really got to me. He's got a hard road ahead.

so Hyde not to worry........i feel you, so does everyone else, here and abroad
 
Thanks for your thoughts MM.

Maybe a jet fuel fire cannot be treated with water, like an oil fire, maybe water just makes it spread. I watched a program a while back on some channel, and I thought I understood them to say that jet fuel won't even burn unless it is heated first. That may be true, but the fuel was probably in the proper state to burn because it was being used in the jet.
It obviously (sadly) burns quite well.
Maybe there are some people working on a system that would at least give people more time to get out in the event of another catastrophe.

It helps to talk about things.

I also have a much better opinion of Bush now that I've seen a different side of him.

James.
 
Gee I thought everyone from this board just disappeared!

I also spent all week/weekend watching the news waiting for something new to happen. Its very tiring after a while...

They predicted that the jet fuel burnt at about 1000 degrees. No fire protection in the world is going to protect a building from thousands of gallons of liquid burning at 1000 degrees. You could see the effect it had, as it melted the structure, the weight of the remaining building above the melted section just came crashing down, taking the entire building straight down with it. Just be thankful that the buildings were so well designed that they did topple over from the impact of a 757 slamming into it!!! That in itself is incredible! Imagine all the people that would have been killed in surrounding buildings had a domino effect taken place.


I also was not a fan of Bush AT ALL. I have since changed my opinion of him immensely. He has handled this terrible situation admirably, and has shown me he is both compasionate and intelligent. He has a reputation of not speaking well, (all his talk sounds like its read off a tele-prompter), but some of his ad-hoc talk, like on the ruins of the trade center, have been inspiring.


I sincerely hope he can garner global support quickly and irradicate all known terrorist organizations, not just bin Ladin's.
 
I've checked in every now and then. But I've decided to keep a bit quieter time for a while. The reason for that is NOT that I don't care, I DO care, it's because I can't put the right words in the right order. And that makes me fear that I will say something stupid, which I really don't want to do.

About that fire protection system. I don't know if it's for real or just a rumour, but some people say that at least the fire doors were sabotaged (sp?).
 
Jim, I agree that the conditions that the buildings were exposed to were beyond anything that an engineer could have emagined in designing those structures. I'm just trying to figure out what, if anything, can be done to prevent other structures from failing in case of a severe fire.
I know that firefighters have complained for years that fighting a fire in these large structures is extremely difficult because their equipment simply can't reach the fire. Unfortunately they have to go into the structure and carry equipment up. In this case, it seems, that even the professionals didn't know that the building was in danger of collapse, or maybe their sense of duty to help limited their ability to think of that possiblility before they went in.
Maybe the collision did undermine the structural integrity, and the fire just finished destroying what strength was left.
What I have been thinking is that if fire protection systems, sprinklers, were on each floor and active, that some of the steel should have remained cool. Since the steel frame at the top is connected to all of the steel frame below maybe the heat transferred downward through the frame causing the failure of the structure below where fire wasn't present.
I don't know... I just hope people that are smart enough to understand these things are working on a plan to improve other structures to increase the odds for survival of the main structure in case of another catastrophe, giving people a chance to escape.

Eddy, I haven't been able to put my thoughts in order either.
I erased several posts earlier in the week because I didn't want to post something stupid or inappropriate. I finally just said to myself "F***it" I have to say something.
Posting here has helped me a lot.
 
In case you're interested, the BBC website ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/ ) has an excellent article about how well the building itself performed in the face of what it was dealing with. I'm not exactly an engineer, but as a construction tradesman I agree with the article. As you think about this, realize that steel melts at about 800 degrees Farenheit. It's actually amazing that the towers stood for as long as they did.

Hope you're all finding ways to cope.
 
Thanks EC, that's an excellent article. It answered many of my questions. I had imagined that the WTC had a steel frame throughout with many seperate beams supporting the structure, I didn't know that each tower had one central core of support. Now I can better understand why the weight of each floor falling from above caused the floors below to collapse as well.
I've seen from a distance steel frame buildings being constructed in my area, although they are extremely small in size, I pictured a frame in the towers made of steel like those buildings.
I don't think those types of buildings rely on a central point of support, I could be wrong, (probably am) but it seemed that the lower floors of those structures must be able to bear the weight of the entire structure. That is why I was confused as to why weight became such an issue in the WTC. I thought that the steel frame was constructed in such a way so that each floor supported the weight of the floors above.
I'm going to do some more reading to try and relieve some of my ignorance of building construction.
As for the fire, the article seems to confirm what others have said, it's a miracle the towers stood for as long as they did.

I'd also like to mention that I took the time to read some of the other message boards, and read some of the things other people are saying.
I don't expect everyone to have the same opinions as I do, but some of the finger pointing and stereotyping really makes me feel sick.

Sayings like...Stupid Americans....
Let's kill the Arab's
It's America's fault, .....They('ll) got/get what they deserve....

I'd like to say that in my opinion humans, all humans, have the potential to kill. Every country has done things, no one is without guilt.
As incredibly sad as this situation is for me, it seems that it is an equally joyous occasion for others. I don't understand how it can be good to kill people. I'd like for people to realize that we are human beings before we are anything else. Before you can support a religious cause, before you can support a political cause, before you can form a hatred, you must first be human.
To the enemies of my country...I don't hate you, as you hate me. I don't want to kill you, as you want to kill me. I support my country, it doesn't make me happy to know that we are going to kill people, but I don't think for a minute that if we bury our heads in the sand that you will leave us alone.

Sorry, I needed to vent about some comments I read today on other boards.
 
You're welcome Mr.H. I often look on the BBC website for different takes on the news.

Like I said, I'm not an engineer, but I can say that steel framed buildings of all types really are designed to spread the weight back to main support beams that can carry the overall weight of the entire building. It seems that buildings are built with individual floors in mind, but that's not really the case. Each floor's design is built to evenly spread that floor's weight to the main beams. In other words, the beams really are the building, and the floors kind of hang on the steel frame, so to speak. It's like a Christmas tree... the "trunk" is the main steel support beams, the "branches" are the various steel cross beams that distribute weight back to the main steel beams (or, the "trunk" in the case of our tree), and the "ornaments" are the concrete floors and stairwells, etc that hang on them.

The fifth main beam that the WTC had was probably put there because at that height, it becomes neccessary to put in cross beams that would have to span probably five floors. Not practical. It would make inhabiting the building very difficult. The solution is to put the fifth main support in the center of the building. That way, any cross beams could make much shorter runs to the center main beam, and could probably do it without crossing through the floors at all.

I think that what happened to the WTC is that probably two (or more) of it's main beams were heated to the point that they could no longer bear the weight of everything above them, causing them to buckle. As soon as they begin to buckle, more and more weight is distributed unevenly, making the remaining main beams also buckle. When the top 20 floors fell onto the beams below, the weight naturally comes down very unevenly, concentrated instead of distributed, crumbling everything on the way down. That's why the building appears to crumble in the video. As the material falls down, the beams below break, one by one instead of all at once.

It's a strange analogy, but the "house of cards" is a good example, I think. It'll stand as long as every card is just where it's supposed to be. Move just one or two cards out of place and it collapses.

Anyway, that's my opinion, but again I'm no engineer. Hope I didn't confuse you too much. It's hard to explain on a BB.

BTW- I think the article was correct to say that the WTC performed amazingly well under the circumstances. Very few buildings even have a fifth main support column, and the WTC not only had one, but it was encased in concrete, then insulated with asbestos (as were it's other mains beams). I agree with the article when it said that most other modern buildings would never have lasted so long. While it does seem that this catastrophe will tragically cost thousands of lives it also bears noticing that the hour or so that the building stood gave thousands more a chance to escape. It's a credit to the excellent construction that went into it.
 
EC your explanation makes a lot more sense to me than those that I've heard on tv. The way you use the christmas tree/house of cards analogy makes perfect sense to me. After I read the article from the link you posted, I came away with a much better understanding of what actually happened.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge with me, even if you aren't an engineer, your explanation makes a lot of sense.