Drum Cymbals

[Melodeath]

It seems a lot on this forum has shifted over the years to samples and drum programming, etc., but hopefully there are still some people left to help out...

I need some help/advice picking out new cymbals for my drum kit. My band is recording a new album in a couple weeks, so we're getting everything in order.

We're currently using some 20-year old Zildjian hi-hats. No idea what model, but they sound fine. I've got a Sabian AAX Metal Ride, which sounds fantastic. On the first album we had a 16" Sabian AAX Metal Crash, which sounded great, but after years of use, it finally cracked in several places and chipped away.

We're thinking we'd like to get 2 crashes for this album. One to replace the broken AAX, and a second additional. The problem is the durmmer and I know next to nothing. I think there's "thin" crashes, and there's different sizes. Is bigger just deeper? What are all the differences? We're not opposed to venturing beyond Sabian to Paiste or Zildjian. Of course, Sabian has been pretty good, but I have no point of comparison. Despite the fact that the AAX Metal Crash broke, we got years of use out of it. What do you guys think/recommend?

This post may seem like it's worded strangely. Note that I'm essentially posting on behalf of our drummer, except that we use my drum kit, and neither of us are drum equipment gurus

I am also posting as our band's audio engineer.

 

[crillemannen]

It feels like drummers in general, atleast the ones i've recorded the last 3 years chose bright cymbals usually. I recorded a drummer a couple of months ago which used sabian vault, a darker sounding series which sounded superb. Had allot more weight to them then the usual more modern sounding cymbals. I felt that the captured sound sounded allot more like what a cymbal actual sounds like in the room then the highswoosh you usually get, but the drummer was probably the best one i've recorded.

And last session a drummer used a cymbal with allot less decay/sustain then usual. Got crazy separation and it almost sounded programmed haha. Would probably work super in metal recordings. If you have a chance to a/b some cymbals that would probably be the best. Good luck

 

[RedDog]

I am invested in the AAX series from sabian right now. They are machine lathe cymbals from b20 alloy. Excellent top end. Perfect for metal. I have the 21" raw bell dry ride, has stick attack like no other. The 16" xplosion crash and 16" Dark Crash are excellent for their sizzle and wash respectively. bigger cymbals have more wash and lower pitch so you want to be careful with your selection. Otherwise your overheads are all smeary but maybe you want that. I don't want that. If you want a darker, stickier attack try the HHX series. Hand hammered, so a bit pricier but equally gorgeous tones.

What's your budget? Are you looking for specific tonal palette?

 

[Melodeath]

Thanks for the reply crillemannen. The idea of a darker cymbal intrigues me... However, I should also say that I've found when I mix, I always boost the highs even on my "bright" cymbals. (Sabian markets them as bright). So maybe that's not a good idea? I'm not sure.

Also, I just checked and I actually have the AA Metal-X Ride, not the AAX. Also, my hi-hats are Zildjian Scimitar, which according to the internet are an 80s/early 90s entry-level model, and "total garbage." They don't sound bad to me though. They sound just like this actually (not my video)

 

[Melodeath]

I am invested in the AAX series from sabian right now. They are machine lathe cymbals from b20 alloy. Excellent top end. Perfect for metal. I have the 21" raw bell dry ride, has stick attack like no other. The 16" xplosion crash and 16" Dark Crash are excellent for their sizzle and wash respectively. bigger cymbals have more wash and lower pitch so you want to be careful with your selection. Otherwise your overheads are all smeary but maybe you want that. I don't want that. If you want a darker, stickier attack try the HHX series. Hand hammered, so a bit pricier but equally gorgeous tones.

What's your budget? Are you looking for specific tonal palette?

We don't necessarily have a budget in mind. And I don't even know what tonal palette really refers to in the context of drum cymbals.

What is "wash?" I hate when drummers crash on a ride, and there's no sizzle. It's like it drops out of the mix. Is that wash?

 

[ChrisTanakaCanwell]

+1 to the Sabian AAX V-Crash (they got rid of the "vault" line but this is the same one), and the HHX! Large, thin crashes always work better in the studio for me. Also, even though they're "darker" crashes they still have plenty of highs, just not as much piercing high-mid content

 

[botus99]

I've tried everything Sabian and Zildjian and as far as recording goes, the HH, HHX, and K, and K Custom series (the dark ones) absolutely SMOKE every other series I've tried. AA, AAX, A's, and A Custom's do sound great, but their recorded tone is too thin IMO. Once you record the darker series of cymbals, you'll have a hard time justifying the bright ones for studio use

 

[RedDog]

Zildjian K's are indeed hard to beat. Had a 22" k ride in the studio last week. Extremely versatile, could crash and wasn't overly washy. (By wash I mean sustain, you know how some cymbals have long sustain, some short aka "fast" and that sustain "sizzles" or "washes"? Enigmatic, yes.) The k ride was hard to beat. Hated the bell though. Different strokes, different folks I suppose.

 

[The StabbinCabin]

Meinl mb10s and mb20s have been used on a ton of metal records and sound great. Similar price range of higher Sabian/Zildjians. Might be worth checking out.

 

[RedDog]

Meinl mb10s and mb20s have been used on a ton of metal records and sound great. Similar price range of higher Sabian/Zildjians. Might be worth checking out.

I would think these cymbals in particular are room dependant. Had 18's and 20's in once, hated em. Decent under a mic, but were killing the shells. Again, probably a room thing. This was a country track, btw.

 

[DavePiatek]

Thanks for the reply crillemannen. The idea of a darker cymbal intrigues me... However, I should also say that I've found when I mix, I always boost the highs even on my "bright" cymbals. (Sabian markets them as bright). So maybe that's not a good idea? I'm not sure.

Also, I just checked and I actually have the AA Metal-X Ride, not the AAX. Also, my hi-hats are Zildjian Scimitar, which according to the internet are an 80s/early 90s entry-level model, and "total garbage." They don't sound bad to me though. They sound just like this actually (not my video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9epySSkh7_g

I had a pair of those Scimitar hats back in the mid-90s when I started playing and I remember mine sounding WAY worse than the ones in that video. Maybe I just had a bad run.

 

[ChrisTanakaCanwell]

I had a pair of those Scimitar hats back in the mid-90s when I started playing and I remember mine sounding WAY worse than the ones in that video. Maybe I just had a bad run.

Yeah, they're usually horrible

 

[MotherEel]

I'd listen to some albums you want to sound like, focus on the cymbals and then see what that drummer uses. If the band is underground enough, you could probably email (or facebook) them to find out what they used.

 

[MatrixClaw]

Those Schimitars actually don't sound as bad as I remember them being. I had a pair a while back and hated them. My least favorite hi-hats I've owned, only second to the backup pair of Zildjian ZBTs I have right now.

Personally, if I have to do it all over again, I would go for a full set of Zildjian Ks. I LOVE the lower pitch of them, they are darker and much more complex than the A series, and take to high shelves really well. Plus, they aren't nearly as loud as the A Customs or AAX series from Zildjian and Sabian, so if you're working with drummers who like to bash on their drums and have no control on their cymbals, they even things out automatically. The darker sound isn't for everyone, though, and they don't mix well with the other series IMO, because of the decreased volume.

As far as sizes go, my main crash is a 16" Zildjian A Custom, with a 17" A Custom to the side. I had an 18" Sabian Vault for a while, but it sounded very much like the A Customs and was worth about twice as much, so I sold it. I've tried several crashes smaller than 16" and they were all super high pitched and I hated them. I won't even consider anything smaller at this point.

Rides, it's gotta be 20" or bigger. Currently I'm using a 21" Meinl Byzance Traditional and it sounds great. I had a 70's Zildjian 19" Avedis a while back that sounded great for lighter rock stuff, but the bell couldn't cut over the rest of my cymbals at all, and it got really washy, to the point where you couldn't really hear the sticks hitting it, just a constant cymbal ring. It sounded good, but small cymbals tend to wash out really quickly, which overpowers the ride and leaves a weird overtone with your other cymbals. Sabian Raw Bell Dry Ride is an awesome ride that cuts insanely well and is fairly inexpensive if you're not afraid to buy used.

Hi-hats, I generally stay with 14", as that's where they sound best from most companies IMO. A lot of the jazz guys like huge hats, but I personally hate them. The only smaller hats I've tried that I really liked are the ones I currently own, 13.25" Zildjian K Custom Hybrids. Seriously the best sounding hi-hats I've ever heard. They are utterly FANTASTIC, but they're not cheap!

Chinas, same deal with rides. I'm SUPER picky about these and I went through about 15 of them when I first got my kit, before I settled on one, and TBH - I'm still not all that happy. Right now, I have an 18" Sabian HHX. It sounds GREAT recorded, but really washy in the room. It's my only cymbal I own that I continue to struggle with, because I don't just use my kit for recording - I jam with several bands. Most chinas, I've found, are INSANELY bright, to the point where, if you're not wearing hearing protection, you're going to do some serious damage to your ears. The HHX is by far the loudest cymbal on my set, and can overpower everything else, if it wants to. I really want to try the Zildjian Oriental and Meinl Byzance chinas, maybe some day!

I've tried everything Sabian and Zildjian and as far as recording goes, the HH, HHX, and K, and K Custom series (the dark ones) absolutely SMOKE every other series I've tried.

Wat?

K Custom are the bright K series. I have owned several Ks and several K Customs (currently own K Custom Hybrid hats) and the K Customs are most definitely the brighter of the two, and also the brighter version of every Zildjian line there is.