going fretless

[Frank the tank]

i just bought a fretless but i have a question - is there a "zero" fret or something where the first fret should be? it seems like everyting is a half step off ? if so how do i tune this ... anyone explain

 

[4-String Annihilation]

Do you have a chromatic tuner? Are there dots on the side of the neck? If so use those for reference. If you tune those the rest should fall into place.

 

[Frank the tank]

well it has dots on the side of the neck, but the first dot is indicated where the second fret usually starts, but the way it's indicated is that its the first fret -like as if the dots on the fretboard were for frets 1 ,3, 5, 7, 9 and 12. thats why i was wondering if everything is a half -step flat, or if I have to tune it weird or different or something. i'm just not sure how that works so far - and i just normally tune my other bass to a keyboard cause thats all i got . otherwise it's a nice bass

 

[Occam's Razor]

You have to put your fingers precisely where the frets are supposed to be.

 

[Frank the tank]

oh i know that , i dont even have any markers on it, its a plain black fretboard, it just seems that there's an extra fret or something at the top hence the 'zero" fret i was asking about -if theres one

 

[Nothinggod]

You have to put your fingers precisely where the frets are supposed to be.

Why?

Do you have a chromatic tuner? Are there dots on the side of the neck? If so use those for reference. If you tune those the rest should fall into place.

What do the 'dots' have to do with anything, let alone intonation? And why would you use a chromatic tuner to tune to them?

By the way, frets aren't notes, they are mechanical devices that intone a note at the position where they are engaged. So there is no fret 0 as there are no frets. Fretless is the same thing as freted only that you use your finger as the intonational device, which of course gives you microtonality as a result.

But this is a classic example of why people should learn about music theory

 

[Frank the tank]

that was informative. thank you all and i'll just figure it out myself. steve if you have anything to add on this matter, well appreciated.

 

[Occam's Razor]

What do the 'dots' have to do with anything, let alone intonation? And why would you use a chromatic tuner to tune to them?

By the way, frets aren't notes, they are mechanical devices that intone a note at the position where they are engaged. So there is no fret 0 as there are no frets. Fretless is the same thing as freted only that you use your finger as the intonational device, which of course gives you microtonality as a result.

But this is a classic example of why people should learn about music theory

Yeah smartass, but you need not tell a beginner about microtonality if he does not yet get the notes straight the way he is used to from his fretted bass. It takes many fretless players years to improve their intonation (ask Mr. Di), so don't make it more complicated when the basics are not even there yet.

I'd say it's not about music theory so much as about ear training. Ask double bassists...

 

[Nothinggod]

Speaking of the basics I don't see how "you have to put your fingers in the precise position" is addressing anything at all let alone the basics. If 'a begginer' doesn't know about even tempering and chromaticism then what is the point of telling him he has to put his fingers where the frets are. This guy wants to know if there is a fret 0. Obviously indicating that he knows nothing about what a note is or what a fret even does. As for asking "Mr D", I won't bother. For a start I know well enough myself. Also I know he will only try and please the rest of you sycophants who meander on about utterly arbitrary and irrelevant nonsense. "Smartass"

 

[Frank the tank]

uh look i'm not a beginner or nothin . i just never played a fretless before. its just that the way the dots are on the neck were throwing me off a little bit in comparison to my fretted bass im used to playing. i think ill figure it out though thanks

 

[Occam's Razor]

Watch your language Mr - what else do you post on forums other than relative trivia? - Ever changed the world with a forum post? All I wanted to say is that you needn't blather about microtonality and accusing others of sycophancy when they only want to tell you that even experienced players have a hard time honing their fretless playing. I am not here to please the owner of this forum, I am not here to please myself with high-flown gibberish and better-than-thou arguments - it's meant to be friendly chatting, which is obviously not your intention.

 

[Nothinggod]

"Watch your language" Funny, given my use of the word "smartass" is a direct quote. As for what is needed and what is not, well I really don't 'need' you to tell me that either. Trust me I know that well enough too. As for "blathering on about microtonality", if you actually read and thought simultaneously, you might have realised that it was a passing remark, an aside even. The main body of my post was to give a brief explaination of what frets do and don't do. It is duely noted that you are yet to respond to why you have to put your fingers in the exact position of the frets, which by the way I have seen in mictronal positions and in fanned arrays on certain instruments. I challenge you to give me a concise and informative response to that without mentioning chromaticism or even microtonality, which by the way has everything to do with why you would even play fretless in the first place with very few exceptions. As for what is and isn't about theory, tell me how you can 'train your ear' without knowing some theory.
And by the way, use of phrases like "ask Mr Di" as a way of defaulting to him as an authority seems pretty sycophantic to me. My opinion may be inaccurate on the matter though...

[edit] just had to correct some typos

 

[sleeping me]

If everyone would go to this link, It will make things a little clearer for you. Just scroll through the index a little.
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/encyclopedia-index.aspx
And check this out.
http://tonalsoft.com/enc/i/interval.aspx

Scrroll to the bottom............

Now how smart are you?

 

[Occam's Razor]

It is no sycophancy to give somebody credit who has obvious capacities. I have read what you have posted elsewhere here. You are a pretty annoying person (at least from what you write), so I won't discuss with you anymore and spare myself the trouble. There's no room for that childishness here anyway.

 

[HippieOfDoom]

Ok, you got me now...
Tank, don't worry about intellectual quarrels. Everybody loves their platforms, but in the end it's just brain flexing. And always feel free to "ask Mr.D"...that's what I'm here for!! I'm definitely not the ultimate authority on everything bass related, but the fact is - it's my forum. I love that it's mostly a nice little place for bassists to come and exchange ideas about music and playing. And of course I try to please all you sycophants, and elephants alike. It's my house, my party, you're all invited and I hope you all have a good time.

Knowing theory doesn't hurt anything even 1% of the time. But realistically, how many musicians are underknowledged shall we say? In my experiences, more than not. Does it mean they're any less good at what they do? I don't believe so. But does it also mean that by one learning theory one can improve and expand? Absolutely yes. Obviously I am from a position where music comes from the heart, and we all have one that beats. We all have licence to create it as our hearts desire. But of course the more the brain is stocked, the more we can expand on our heart's desires. I'm not playing the fence by saying I believe in both sides...music is an art, and art has no rules...only subjected to acceptence of taste.

I have a certain amount of theory knowledge, and I have also been inspired by my bong. I'm not defending or accusing here...I'm just saying I believe in individuality. And it's up to the individual to decide how much info he chooses to gather along the way.

I have three decades of musical experiences on my resume. So of course I embrace questions or advice directed at me. I love to help when I can, because this instant medium form of contact wasn't even fathomable when I was young. I would have loved to send Chris Squire or Stanley Clarke an email back in the 70's and say "what's up, I love your playing, how do you do blablabla...?" So at my age and my experience level I like to believe I can throw out some helpful advice and make a newer player that much more wiser. But as much a mentor, I am the perpetual student as well. I never stop trying to absorb any knowledge or any kind of musical inspiration that I can, whenever I can. In fact...with your extensive theory expertise, Nothinggod, I would love to hear your musical offerings. I'm always looking for new sources of inspirations to enlighten me.

Occam's is basically right too. The side markers on a neck of a fretted bass are for finger reference. As you "put your fingers on the dots" the string is being shortened by the fret, creating a different pitch with the string. So the dot is behind the fret is only for reference because the fret itself is "making the note". Obviously without frets your fingers do need to be put right where the fret would be. So the side markers are moved up in relation to a fretted style neck. And just as every other fret isn't side marked, every other note position isn't either. Almost every bass I've seen doesn't come with a marker for the first fret, usually starting on the third instead. So the big blank spot on the side of the neck right after the nut are the spaces for the first "fret" spot, the second "fret" spot and then higher up than a fretted neck the first dot would be where the third fret would be. And that is indeed where you put your finger for that position. Note that the side markers are for reference and the true note can be found only by your ear and touch. Just imagine where the frets would be and use your fingers to fret the note. And hopefully the tempering, chromaticism and microtonality will come sooner than an angry studio engineer throwing a tuner inline will...!!! (hehehe...been there, done that...!)

There is no zero fret. It just looks weird without all the lines of the frets. Just account for the proper spacing needed for each "fret space". It looks far from the nut to the first side marker, but if you tune your open strings right, and then finger/fret each note going up chromatically and compare with the tuner or keyboard I think you'll soon learn your neck and learn how to find each note. Pretty basic knowledge I know, but I think that's where Frank is at. Baby steps man. Theory and feeling need balance, but how can one apply those without at least having a decent feel for the tool in which to grow with?

SDG

 

[sleeping me]

My last post was left for the intent of humor. Just when I think I understand music a little more. WTF? That takes all the fun out of it.

 

[Nothinggod]

Ok, so let's make one thing clear here to start with. Firstly none of my posts have been directed at Frank the Tank directly. I mean Frank is obviously a beginner at playing fretless and his knowledge of certain things is limited. I don't really hold it against him that he thinks or thought there was a fret 0. What worries me is when people like Frank the Tank ask questions like that and get equally misinformed responses like 'you have to place your fingers where the frets would be.' It really only half answers the question and yet it also answers the question in a way that can easily be misinterpreted, and 4-string's post about tuning to the dots was utterly vague. Really the simple response is that a fretless bass is the same as a fretted as far a tuning and scale go unless you want it to be otherwise ie. alternate tunings etc. The difference is that if you are going to play fretless chromatically you have to take into account that intoning the notes depends on where your fingers are. There is really no way to give an informative response to why you place your fingers in certain positions or how to ear train without bringing some kind of theory into it, basic theory at that. Intonation itself is relative. For example why is there a P4 and no P3 interval in evenly tempered chromaticism? Because M3 and P3 are different notes. The point is though, that realising that strings have certain divisions which relate to where you put your finger all comes down to knowing at least to a basic degree why the note is chromatically intoned in one position and not in another. But really all this has nothing to do with whether knowing theory makes you a better player or not. What it really has to do with is whether you are able to give an informed and concise response. On the other hand I guess we could all live in a world of ‘monkey see monkey do’ where we all complain that everyone is doing the same thing as everyone else and no one is really doing anything interesting or even knows why they are doing it.

On another note I personally don't really care whether someone knows theory or not when it comes to the music they make. Mick Karn is one bassplayer I was influenced by a lot over the years and I have read interviews where it was said that Bill Bruford was disgruntled that he had to play with such an uneducated musician. Apparently Mick Karn was working with people like David Torn and Bruford and still didn't know the difference between a major and minor seventh. What appeals to me is based on how I interpret the aesthetic of it. Which is based on personal experience and taste etc, as with anyone. Personally I don't really believe passion has a lot to do with it. You can make music that appeals to someone on some level whether you are doing it for no other reason than that you are getting paid for the session or whether you are doing it because it makes you feel all sentimental. And then again some people might find sentimentally made music completely uninteresting. There are no absolutes in music, which really, and as I have said before is as much a science as an art. I personally don't see any difference between the two. Both to me are the human pursuit of understanding and knowledge.

But as for my work let me just say this, Hippy, you probably do deserve to hear some of what I do since I have used your forum to hammer my opinion into certain people, and hopefully to some good effect, and I would like to indulge you. However, in the context of this 'debate' I think me posting links would only serve as a means for arbitrary comments like, "well, now we see your work it just shows how worthless knowing theory is." I am hoping that was not your intent though and assuming it was not, however I will refrain from giving anyone that kind of opportunity at this time. You can take what I say for what it is and base its value on its relevance not on some arbitrary measure of its author.

As for giving credit to someone’s abilities, really that is, dare I say, arbitrary? I think the point I was making was that “Mr Di’s” abilities really don’t veto my opinion. Personally I like “Mr Di’s” playing and have bought several records with him on it based to a good extent on his participation. I don’t see how that means that if “Mr Di” disagrees with something I say that I must be wrong. On the other hand it seems to me that that is not the case where other people are concerned.

Oh and thanks for the link, sleeping me, very informative and I say that with all sincerity. Here is one interesting quote I found on that site;
“Just intonation and microtonal music theory form the basis of all musical scales and musical tuning systems. From the ancient Greeks and Sumerians right through the middle ages, musicians have studied math and music, and they were inseparable topics. Unfortunately, Western music has ignored its own math-and-music foundations for the last 100 years. Composers, theorists, and instrumentalists have completely ignored the fundamental relationship between math and music, and instead have focused on the rote learning of unchangable symbolic rules and musical scales.”

Anyway, I think I will be childish now and say that none of you deserve a response. That will save me.

 

[Jason Washburn]

Steve 'The Hippie Of Doom' DiGiorgio .....hope the tour is doing great for you guys....looking foward for some update about that ...and pictures too

 

[Occam's Razor]

Nothinggod: I assume you overestimated what I wrote. I did not want to say: "Look what Steve says, he's right, you are dumb." It was meant to clarify that Frank needed a basic advice and microtonality went a little to far as to what he wanted to hear.
I've been playing bass for ten years and fretless for more than the half of it, so I won't let anybody tell me that it's bollocks what I say...well at least not completely...

So you're a studied player yourself?

 

[MaskedJackal]

Steve shows his true hippiness and promotes peace. I dig it

I also firmly back what he said. To each his own.

I have a certain amount of theory knowledge, and I have also been inspired by my bong.

I laughed so hard reading that. I don't indulge in the stuff, but hey, I bet it's part of what makes his playing interesting