Guitar amps : good for live vs good for recording

[Djabthrash]

Hi guys,

I've been using the search function but didn't find anything about it, so don't bash me if there's already a thread about it...

Back to the topic : many times i've read statements like "this amp sounds good for live gigs but sucks for recordings" (and vice-versa) on this forum.

Though i don't get it... We are speaking about tone here...

Unless i've missed something, most of us have our amps miked during gigs (except if you go direct or don't use mics when playing in a very small venue), so an amp that gives good results miked in the recording studio should also give great results in a live setup, and vice-versa, uh ?

So what's this "sounds good live VS sounds good in the studio" all about ?

 

[K Odell]

well from what I have found in my own personal experiences. Powerballs track really well, but they dont cut very well live. That could also come down to the player and how they have it dialed in.

 

[Djabthrash]

well from what I have found in my own personal experiences. Powerballs track really well, but they dont cut very well live. That could also come down to the player and how they have it dialed in.

Héhé... The statements i mentioned where mainly on Powerball related threads... then the funny thing was that i've also read "the Powerball sounds good live but sucks for recording (blablabla too compressed, fizzy, ...blablabla)" a couple of times if i remember right...

 

[gorath23]

Fireball sounds great at low volumes, not so much at higher volumes- it thins out pretty badly, considering its really thick normally.

 

[Djabthrash]

Fireball sounds great at low volumes, not so much at higher volumes- it thins out pretty badly, considering its really thick normally.

Thanks for this hint... Never considered this volume issue...

Though i think most of the times people want to crank their amps pretty loud live as well as in the studio to get the best sound out of it, except if you're in the "bedroom volume studio recordings" mode.

It seems that this "sounds good at low volume but thins out when cranked loud" feature is mainly related to transistor amps or a minority of tube amps (like the Fireball as you mentioned), isn't it ?

So as most of us use mainly high-gain tube amps for metal, i guess this "thins out when cranked loud" volume issue is kinda an exception.

Is there an explanation that works for the MAJORITY of those metal hi-gain tube amps ?

 

[GhostUnholy]

im just going to give you a bunch of speculation really, im not experienced or anything with recording

Héhé... The statements i mentioned where mainly on Powerball related threads... then the funny thing was that i've also read "the Powerball sounds good live but sucks for recording (blablabla too compressed, fizzy, ...blablabla)" a couple of times if i remember right...

Well, the powerball sounds so compressed and gainy and agressive and so on that I like using it live because I find it more satisfying i.e. it gets me closer to this multitracked album tone you hear than say actually using a 5150 live to sound like an album where theres 4 tracks of 5150 stacked. Plus you dont need to boost it and so on, has a usable clean channel, etc, etc. so its just convenient live, though unless you're careful you might have problems cutting (you wont unless you dial it in like a dumbass though). I'm not really an experienced engineer like some people here who hate the powerball, but I can see how those same qualities might make it difficult to track. Like the high end fizz that makes it sound really aggressive live can't really be dialed out and its really gainy, youd have to back it off so much its ridiculous. That said, I've heard a few albums tracked with powerballs, or blends of powerball and other stuff that sound great so its not like it can't be done.

Fireball sounds great at low volumes, not so much at higher volumes- it thins out pretty badly, considering its really thick normally.

Everyone always says this but when I played the fireball I didn't find it really tinned out if I adjusted my eq? I think it just doesn't sound any thicker as you go loud as other tube amps do, so relatively it feels thinner because you know it *should be getting thicker.


But maybe to look at this more in depth,I know a lot of the guys here seem to like tracking with the fireball but hate the powerball so lets maybe do a little comparison...

- the powerball is tighter than the fireball, basically no sag to speak of I found, whereas the fireball felt much looser... do you people find that its *too tight?
- honestly I don't see how people don't complain that the fireball isn't over gained also, I can never take the gain up past 4 on one and be satisfied, but maybe one thing is that the fireball sounds more natural as you back off the gain, whereas at lower volumes and (much) lower gain than normal I find my powerball starts to sound more "plasticy" if that makes sense
- i think channel 4 of the powerball is supposed to be similar to the fireball, but there is a difference the powerball uses a logarithmic treble pot whereas the fireball uses a linear treble pot. I thought the fireball was irritatingly fizzy also, same as my powerball, but maybe other guys here have been able to eq it out? the powerball though to sound really crushing needs to have quite a bit of presence and treble though i found

... actually im going to stop there because I dont see how this is helpful, I'm not sure where I was going with that, but maybe you'll be able to see something in those differences that might make the fireball better for tracking? I dont but then I'm a recording n00b

Another thing, the fireball while people like it for tracking is inconvenient as fuck live. Shared EQ, doesn't really cut, outrageous amounts of gain, etc

Is there an explanation that works for the MAJORITY of those metal hi-gain tube amps ?

I haven't really heard this discussion surrounding other amps than Engls really, maybe you have, but then a lot of people complain about the engls having solid state characteristics despite being tube? I think i read somewhere that andy thought some engl model was too SS sounding?

 

[Djabthrash]

im just going to give you a bunch of speculation really, im not experienced or anything with recording

Well, the powerball sounds so compressed and gainy and agressive and so on that I like using it live because I find it more satisfying i.e. it gets me closer to this multitracked album tone you hear than say actually using a 5150 live to sound like an album where theres 4 tracks of 5150 stacked. Plus you dont need to boost it and so on, has a usable clean channel, etc, etc. so its just convenient live, though unless you're careful you might have problems cutting (you wont unless you dial it in like a dumbass though). I'm not really an experienced engineer like some people here who hate the powerball, but I can see how those same qualities might make it difficult to track. Like the high end fizz that makes it sound really aggressive live can't really be dialed out and its really gainy, youd have to back it off so much its ridiculous. That said, I've heard a few albums tracked with powerballs, or blends of powerball and other stuff that sound great so its not like it can't be done.



Everyone always says this but when I played the fireball I didn't find it really tinned out if I adjusted my eq? I think it just doesn't sound any thicker as you go loud as other tube amps do, so relatively it feels thinner because you know it *should be getting thicker.


But maybe to look at this more in depth,I know a lot of the guys here seem to like tracking with the fireball but hate the powerball so lets maybe do a little comparison...

- the powerball is tighter than the fireball, basically no sag to speak of I found, whereas the fireball felt much looser... do you people find that its *too tight?
- honestly I don't see how people don't complain that the fireball isn't over gained also, I can never take the gain up past 4 on one and be satisfied, but maybe one thing is that the fireball sounds more natural as you back off the gain, whereas at lower volumes and (much) lower gain than normal I find my powerball starts to sound more "plasticy" if that makes sense
- i think channel 4 of the powerball is supposed to be similar to the fireball, but there is a difference the powerball uses a logarithmic treble pot whereas the fireball uses a linear treble pot. I thought the fireball was irritatingly fizzy also, same as my powerball, but maybe other guys here have been able to eq it out? the powerball though to sound really crushing needs to have quite a bit of presence and treble though i found

... actually im going to stop there because I dont see how this is helpful, I'm not sure where I was going with that, but maybe you'll be able to see something in those differences that might make the fireball better for tracking? I dont but then I'm a recording n00b

Another thing, the fireball while people like it for tracking is inconvenient as fuck live. Shared EQ, doesn't really cut, outrageous amounts of gain, etc



I haven't really heard this discussion surrounding other amps than Engls really, maybe you have, but then a lot of people complain about the engls having solid state characteristics despite being tube? I think i read somewhere that andy thought some engl model was too SS sounding?

This thread wasn't centered on the "Fireball vs Powerball" thing specifically but though thorugh this example you pointed a lot of things i didn't consider and that seem to matter for the "good live vs good in the studio" issue.

First of all i didn't consider the fact that live you only have 1 or 2 guitar players at the same time whereas the studio you have more like dualtracking a few times, more likely quadtracking and even more tracks in some cases, so your amp live should sound a bit like "one or more" guitar takes together in the studio, which means maybe a lot of gain but still tight.

I don't bother quadtracking myself, i prefer to go for something simple and more "live-sounding" so i dual-track so i guess that's why i didn't consider the forementioned stuff in the first place.

Does all of this make sense to somebody else or not ?

I'm not talking about the "conveniency" issues here, which is a different topic (i mean the shared EQ settings vs one EQ for each channel for instance). I'm just considering the tone.

 

[Torniojaws]

Yes, I've been mentioning the live vs. studio about Engl Powerball a lot. I really like it live, but in the studio it just isn't cutting it. It never gets a really nice tone going no matter how you tweak it under the mic. But live, it's one of the best amps I've played, easily beating amps like Peavey 6505, all Marshall stuff, Krank Revolution and Laney stuff. I haven't had a chance to try playing through Mesa Rectifiers live yet, though.

 

[gorath23]

- honestly I don't see how people don't complain that the fireball isn't over gained also, I can never take the gain up past 4 on one and be satisfied, but maybe one thing is that the fireball sounds more natural as you back off the gain, whereas at lower volumes and (much) lower gain than normal I find my powerball starts to sound more "plasticy" if that makes sense
-

Another thing, the fireball while people like it for tracking is inconvenient as fuck live. Shared EQ, doesn't really cut, outrageous amounts of gain, etc

I haven't really heard this discussion surrounding other amps than Engls really, maybe you have, but then a lot of people complain about the engls having solid state characteristics despite being tube? I think i read somewhere that andy thought some engl model was too SS sounding?

I agree with most of what you say, and yes I complain about too much gain, I'm really tempted to put a 12at7 in v1, or a low gain 12ax7, but I have no idea how this will affect the tone.

Personally I don't think it sounds SS at all, its really saturated, fat and thick sounding - not things I'd associate with SolidState amps. Oh and no it doesn't cut well. Apart from the gain issue though, none of it matters as I don't play live. If I thought I could get the same kind of thick rhythm tones out of a Blackmore I'd swap it straight away, but all the rhythm clips I've heard of the Blackmore sound, frankly crap in comparison, same goes for the Savage (60). I'm talking about Death-Doom tones here, not MeloDeath or Power Metal stuff.

 

[GhostUnholy]

I agree with most of what you say, and yes I complain about too much gain, I'm really tempted to put a 12at7 in v1, or a low gain 12ax7, but I have no idea how this will affect the tone.

Personally I don't think it sounds SS at all, its really saturated, fat and thick sounding - not things I'd associate with SolidState amps. Oh and no it doesn't cut well. Apart from the gain issue though, none of it matters as I don't play live. If I thought I could get the same kind of thick rhythm tones out of a Blackmore I'd swap it straight away, but all the rhythm clips I've heard of the Blackmore sound, frankly crap in comparison, same goes for the Savage (60). I'm talking about Death-Doom tones here, not MeloDeath or Power Metal stuff.

I bunch of people I know have tried swapping v1 tube and liked it with both a 12at7 and low gain ax7s but I haven't heard their amps so I can't really help you.

And yeah I don't really think my engl sounds SS either, though on your other point I would argue that SS amps tend to be more gainy and saturated than most tube amps don't they? It's mid gain crunch and so on that digital modeling and regular SS amps really seem to blow at.

But yeah I hear you on the style thing, I'd love the blackmore for power metal, savage for thrash/melodeath, but for death/deathcore/etc powerball or fireball any day, etc

 

[Djabthrash]

Something i don't get guys :

-when you say "this amp has way too much gain" >why is it such a big deal ? You can put the gain on 9'o clock for rythm if you have "metalhead" pup's a la EMG81/EMG85/SD SH4/whatever and it will sound fine, can't you ?. If you need more gain for a lead sound or if you have certain kind of passive pickups then you still have the possibility to turn the gain knob a bit more. I feel like you guys can't stand it because you're used to put the gain knob on, let's say, 12'o clock on certain amps, so putting the gain knob on "9 o'clock" on another amp (ENGL Power/Fire/ball) seems like a disgrace for you.

-when you say "the amp doesn't cut live" > then it should not cut in a mix either, right ? To me a live sound has like 2 guitars, a bass, vocals, drums, same as a mix... So i don't get the whole "it cuts well live but not in a mix (and vice-versa)"

 

[SickBoy]

I'm not really an experienced engineer like some people here who hate the powerball, but I can see how those same qualities might make it difficult to track. Like the high end fizz that makes it sound really aggressive live can't really be dialed out and its really gainy, youd have to back it off so much its ridiculous.

Can't the fizz be dialed out with lowered gain setting?
As for too gainy an amp - why don't you just replace the first preamp tube as someone mentioned? Put in something like JAN 5751 or ECC82, who needs that max gain on modern amps after all?!

Putting in a different preamp tube can alter the sound too. I bought two vintage RFT ECC83 tubes (old German production) and after putting them in my Blackmore I suddenly needed to add more treble and presence (before that they were at 9-10 o'clock) and lost some of the gain (the excessive gain that was useless anyway). The sound thickened a bit, which was most obvious on crunch channel, which became very sort of liquid, not grainy... It was all well even before the tube swap, but I really wanted to see how these tubes would act in my amp.

In all, there are far more factor to ones tone other than knob tweaking and cab swapping.

Something i don't get guys :

-when you say "this amp has way too much gain" >why is it such a big deal ? You can put the gain on 9'o clock for rythm if you have "metalhead" pup's a la EMG81/EMG85/SD SH4/whatever and it will sound fine, can't you ?. If you need more gain for a lead sound or if you have certain kind of passive pickups then you still have the possibility to turn the gain knob a bit more.

Not sure for you, but I get the feeling the gain becomes too excessive too quickly when I turn the knob, which gives me less usable range. If I lower the overall gain by replacing the 1st preamp tube, then I've narrowed the excessive bit to 2 or 3 o'clock and later, not high noon and later.
The less gain possible - the better IMHO.

I feel like you guys can't stand it because you're used to put the gain knob on, let's say, 12'o clock on certain amps, so putting the gain knob on "9 o'clock" on another amp (ENGL Power/Fire/ball) seems like a disgrace for you.

Haha, I suppose there are some thinking along those lines

 

[noarin]

+1 on what sickboy said;

For a really tight sound, you don't want to use too much gain, but you also don't want to sound thinnish. In my experience, low-gain amps; are more fluent in gain control, meaning that you can dial them, let's say, past 12 o clock, and you get in the ballpark where you want to be. I know 6505's can sound awesome with gain on 1 or 2 (Settings, not o'clock) for example

for example, on my amp, the point of the gain knob between "thin, very low-gain" and "a bit too much gain for my liking" is around 9o clock. If it were a lower gain amp, I could most likely choose a point in between those, at let's say 12o clock, see where I'm getting at?

 

[gorath23]

Something i don't get guys :

-when you say "this amp has way too much gain" >why is it such a big deal ? You can put the gain on 9'o clock for rythm if you have "metalhead" pup's a la EMG81/EMG85/SD SH4/whatever and it will sound fine, can't you ?. If you need more gain for a lead sound or if you have certain kind of passive pickups then you still have the possibility to turn the gain knob a bit more. I feel like you guys can't stand it because you're used to put the gain knob on, let's say, 12'o clock on certain amps, so putting the gain knob on "9 o'clock" on another amp (ENGL Power/Fire/ball) seems like a disgrace for you.

Because 9'oclock is still too high on a Fireball for multi-tracking.

 

[GhostUnholy]

Something i don't get guys :

-when you say "this amp has way too much gain" >why is it such a big deal ? You can put the gain on 9'o clock for rythm if you have "metalhead" pup's a la EMG81/EMG85/SD SH4/whatever and it will sound fine, can't you ?. If you need more gain for a lead sound or if you have certain kind of passive pickups then you still have the possibility to turn the gain knob a bit more. I feel like you guys can't stand it because you're used to put the gain knob on, let's say, 12'o clock on certain amps, so putting the gain knob on "9 o'clock" on another amp (ENGL Power/Fire/ball) seems like a disgrace for you.

-when you say "the amp doesn't cut live" > then it should not cut in a mix either, right ? To me a live sound has like 2 guitars, a bass, vocals, drums, same as a mix... So i don't get the whole "it cuts well live but not in a mix (and vice-versa)"

I know you people all seem to like recording with EMGs and so on but I've never really found there was any point to using high output pickups with modern high gainers, I only just put EMGs in my LP because I started recording direct in. Especially the fireball, mid output pickups, 9 oclock gain is still completely over the top.

But to actually address your question, I think there are a number of factors that make it different. You first of all don't have some uber tweaked mix with everything panned to perfection to set up the stereo image live and make sure theres space for everything in its respective frequency range. Also you'e not going to have the luxury of compressing whatever you want on stage generally. Also, in smaller venues you're not necessarily going to be able to keep the snare/cymbals in control volumewise and so on. And I think the biggest thing is you're playing in some really large hall with generally horrible acoustics, and tons of reflections and reverb, turning your band's sound to mush. Also as I mentioned before you're probably using mroe gain live since theres just two of you, again leading to muddier tone. I find I use a LOT more mids live to cut than i need when i want my guitars to cut on a recording. Obviously sometimes you'll actually be playing in a decent venue with a good sound guy and in these cases it'll be less of a problem/difference.

Can't the fizz be dialed out with lowered gain setting?
As for too gainy an amp - why don't you just replace the first preamp tube as someone mentioned? Put in something like JAN 5751 or ECC82, who needs that max gain on modern amps after all?!

Putting in a different preamp tube can alter the sound too. I bought two vintage RFT ECC83 tubes (old German production) and after putting them in my Blackmore I suddenly needed to add more treble and presence (before that they were at 9-10 o'clock) and lost some of the gain (the excessive gain that was useless anyway). The sound thickened a bit, which was most obvious on crunch channel, which became very sort of liquid, not grainy... It was all well even before the tube swap, but I really wanted to see how these tubes would act in my amp.

In all, there are far more factor to ones tone other than knob tweaking and cab swapping.

I haven't swapped it because I love using my PB the way it is with my band live, but I may start experimenting a bit just for kicks.

Not sure for you, but I get the feeling the gain becomes too excessive too quickly when I turn the knob, which gives me less usable range. If I lower the overall gain by replacing the 1st preamp tube, then I've narrowed the excessive bit to 2 or 3 o'clock and later, not high noon and later.
The less gain possible - the better IMHO.

+1 this is the problem I've found with most Engls/Peaveys, you can only use a fraction of the gain knob.

Because 9'oclock is still too high on a Fireball for multi-tracking.

+1

 

[Djabthrash]

I know you people all seem to like recording with EMGs and so on but I've never really found there was any point to using high output pickups with modern high gainers, I only just put EMGs in my LP because I started recording direct in. Especially the fireball, mid output pickups, 9 oclock gain is still completely over the top.

But to actually address your question, I think there are a number of factors that make it different. You first of all don't have some uber tweaked mix with everything panned to perfection to set up the stereo image live and make sure theres space for everything in its respective frequency range. Also you'e not going to have the luxury of compressing whatever you want on stage generally. Also, in smaller venues you're not necessarily going to be able to keep the snare/cymbals in control volumewise and so on. And I think the biggest thing is you're playing in some really large hall with generally horrible acoustics, and tons of reflections and reverb, turning your band's sound to mush. Also as I mentioned before you're probably using mroe gain live since theres just two of you, again leading to muddier tone. I find I use a LOT more mids live to cut than i need when i want my guitars to cut on a recording. Obviously sometimes you'll actually be playing in a decent venue with a good sound guy and in these cases it'll be less of a problem/difference.



I haven't swapped it because I love using my PB the way it is with my band live, but I may start experimenting a bit just for kicks.



+1 this is the problem I've found with most Engls/Peaveys, you can only use a fraction of the gain knob.



+1

thanks for your explanation

 

[Metaltastic]

I know you people all seem to like recording with EMGs and so on but I've never really found there was any point to using high output pickups with modern high gainers, I only just put EMGs in my LP because I started recording direct in.

sssiiiiigggghhh...EMG's (and other actives) aren't overly high-out pickups, they're just a lot more sensitive and microscopic (and thus clear). This myth isn't as bad as the "EMG's make all guitars sound the same," but it's still annoying.

 

[Darkening]

A lot of guitars and not a single EMG...

Come on man, you owe to yourself to at least give one a test run.

P.S. Hi-Gain amps sound better when you don't have to crank the pre-amp gain. Talk about noisy...

Also, regarding the question...

There is a big difference between standing 6 feet from your amp (and the audience standing 10-20 feet or more) and putting your ear up to one of the speakers in your cab.

 

[GhostUnholy]

sssiiiiigggghhh...EMG's (and other actives) aren't overly high-out pickups, they're just a lot more sensitive and microscopic (and thus clear). This myth isn't as bad as the "EMG's make all guitars sound the same," but it's still annoying.

Sorry I should have been clearer, I just mentioned both emg's and high output pups because he was talking about typical metal pups. also yeah they're not overly high output but i've liked some guitars with quite low output pups in comparison when using modern high gainers, the amp just didn't need higher output.

A lot of guitars and not a single EMG...

Come on man, you owe to yourself to at least give one a test run.

P.S. Hi-Gain amps sound better when you don't have to crank the pre-amp gain. Talk about noisy...

I tried a few guitars with EMGs in them recently and dug some of them, its not that i'm against the pickups, just that I don't think they're really neccessary, like he said to use metal pups and turn down the gain on the amp, with amps like the engls its not needed. And the PB is so tight that I don't feel like my guitars need the extra clarity even, not that i wouldnt appreciate it, but i like the different colors and feels of my passive pup loaded guitars, and i like to use my guitars for fusion and some jazz/blues/soft rock so I the guitars i use live i dont want to put either emgs or high output passives. And to your post script i dont use that much pre gain anyhow. Though hypocritically I do boost my dual rec with a TS. And I did just have an 81/85 put in my les paul.

Also, regarding the question...

There is a big difference between standing 6 feet from your amp (and the audience standing 10-20 feet or more) and putting your ear up to one of the speakers in your cab.

+1

 

[Djabthrash]

Also, regarding the question...

There is a big difference between standing 6 feet from your amp (and the audience standing 10-20 feet or more) and putting your ear up to one of the speakers in your cab.

Ok but :

-in most cases (= not in very small venues) the crowd mostly hear the miked sound of your amp, not the "room sound".

-I doubt that an amp that sounds killer under a mic will sound like crap in the room.