Hopefully...

[vows in ashes]

Hello everyone. I hope that this forum can be used to spark intelligent and diverse thought on the band, not only to saying things like "They rock hard like the Scorpions!" or "DEATH VOICES ARE FOR STUPOID FAGS!!!"

So, in the hopes of sparking discussion, I have a question. Why does it seem as though American or British bands are incapable of putting out music that bands like Opeth seem to do so easily. The music is diverse, lyrically mature and complete, and technically perfect, yet few bands compare, and those who do (in my opinion) are often of Swedish, Norwegian, or Finnish citizenship. This may seem like a stretch, but could these countries social democratic systems have anything to do with this? I'll leave it at that because I think the claim is fairly ridiculous and I wouldn't want to numb anyone else's brain. So, respond with whatever you can.

Nitin

 

[Kem]

Hmm that's a good point. And you know what? I have no ferkin' clue Scandinavians are apparently quite fanatical about their metal, comparatively speaking anyway. At the risk of sounding hip-hoppy, I guess it's just the scene over there.

 

[Stephen]

All I know is that Swedish metal rules!

 

[Tommy-G]

You're probably right. The Scandanavian countries are much more liberal as far as their laws, things like that. Perhaps it just breeds a more relaxed and thoughtful musician, in turn making them more inspired. For example, the jail system over there - something a few bands are familiar with - puts you in jail for 10 years for murder, and lets you visit your family on the weekends. Very non-punitive.

Also being up there - secluded from the rest of Europe - allows them a certain amount of isolationism I think. They aren't really influenced very much by the goings-on of the "mainland" European countries, like England, etc. They tend to have a mind all of their own, and beliefs of their own. Also keep in mind that when outside forces try to press themselves upon the countries of Scandanavia, they're often met with hostility. Word War II - the only country to fall to Nazism in Scandanavia was Norway, and that was a really brutal fight.

Lots of bands express the "opression of christianity" through their music - and most of those bands are from Scandanavia. Lots of them seem to be very intelligent songcrafters, with a very good understanding about the concepts they sing about - because if they didn't know what they were singing about, then they would sound stupid, and their entire point would be lost.

However, that's not true of Opeth. Opeth is simply genius. Scandanavia and its bullheadedness towards outside influences and corrution is a virtue that must be commended - it shows that artistic integrity is still present in some part of the world.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Well, the American scene seems to have put out very little quality music... well, ever? At least as it pertains to the past few years in the metal genre, the U.S. is really stagnating creatively. This is probably because the nation is so completely commercialized and the notion of capitalism and the "American Dream" breeds crappy commercial music - artistry seems low in priority.

As for the social democratic systems, I've noticed that Sweden seems to, in terms of style of government, be more similar to Canada than any other country in the world. However, there's nowhere near the outflux of musicianship from Canada that there is in Sweden (or, is it just that Metal is less popular here because most people's ideas of metal are tainted by those coming from our noisy southern neighbour?). Historically, there is Rush, and contemporarily, Devin Townsend's put out some amazing stuff, especially with his Ocean Machine record, but past that?

As far as Britain goes, in the 60's and 70's they seemed to produce the majority of quality rock-oriented music. Could they be caught in the commercialized backwash of that today? I'll cite Anathema's Judgement as an example of great, emotive music still coming out of Britain today, but it certainly seems that for right now the Scandanavians rule all.

Note: I do make a lot of generalizations here, and acknowledge that I may very well be ignorant to strong contradictory arguments.

 

[vows in ashes]

yeah, i would fully agree that American music, especially whatever is deemed "heavy" recently has been absolute garbage. For the most part, that is at least.

What I was saying about the possible influence of the political system was and is based on very little knowledge of the actual political machinations of Sweden and other similar countries. Admittedly, i know nearly nothing of the subject. But, assuming that they have a more even handed system of wealth distribution, and their socialistic nature ensures a low poverty rate, it could possibly have an effect. Many artists in America come from relatively poor, urban or rural households where their selected career path is rarely financially lucrative. This struggle for the maintanence of minimal cultural necessities could disrupt or stem the flow of creative energies, and therefore...the music becomes garbage. Or perhaps they are fixated on simplistic ideologies or images, never moving toward more complex understandings of music/lyricism/imagery.

just a thought.

nitin

 

[Tommy-G]

One thing I do notice is that a lot of bands claim that they are "influenced" by the old-school rock bands of England. However, I never can hear that influence in such garbage as say... well, Limp Bizkit or Korn (not that I sit around listening to them... oh well, I don't have to explain - you all know what I mean) or anyof the "nu-metal" crap that is released today. Whatever happened to the value of musicianship to the musicians? I now walk around in public places - let's say the mall - and hear some person say: "Wow Metallca is THE heaviest band I've ever heard they're so great!"

And they're holding a copy of "Re-load".

What the hell? I agree with you wholeheartedly hellspawn when you say the the music scene here in American has turned to crap. Surely there still are solid bands here - Morbid Angel to name one - that are from American. One thing I do notice however is that Morbid Angel hasn't really progressed (I'm sure that statement will make some people pissed off). They sound the same as they always have! Now they're out touring with Pantera - probably one of the biggest problems in metal today, as far as conduct of the musicians go (The way Pantera conducts themselves).

You mentioned Canada. Since I'm into death metal as well as prog and jazz and everything else, I would say Canada isn't all too bad! You mentioned Rush and Devin Townsend. What about Cryptopsy? They're extremely skilled musicians - technical MASTERS. I mean MASTERs. Just as Clapton used to be considered a master guitarist, I believe Cryptopsy are currently at the top tier of "master" deathmetal/grind ladder.

The whole problem in the entire metal community is the record companies. They take in bands like Staind, Limp Bizkit, Korn, Mudvayne, whatever - and they market them as being heavy, and teenagers buy it! They'll never know about Opeth, Nevermore, Anathema, Emperor, Arcturus, etc. And that's a shame. Because of the fact that the youth gets saturated with this crap at a young age makes them reproduce it when they grow up and start bands! It's a viscous cycle.

I'd be willing to bet Scandanavia has similar problems, but because of it's smaller size - and also the fact that there are three very different countries up there - the problems aren't as predominant as they are here in the US. Surely the area promotes creativity, as those countries also don't have the problems of industrialization that we - the US - have. There are still forests, mountains, and glaciers there to gaze in awe at. And that is inspiring in itself.

"In the wake of dawn
The mist of morning linger before it leaves
Invisible eyes, red reflection
It is you
Smiling in the midst of the moor"
- Opeth, Nectar

Such awe-inspiring countries create awe-inspiring bands. Well, that's enough of my ranting for now. It's nice to be among intelligent music listeners, instead of the usual "Yeah (insert band name here) sucks a big...!" types. Ahhhhh. So refreshing

 

[noname4u]

First of all, not everything that comes out of Sweden is actually good. They actually do the bubblegum songwriting for the hellspawn that every stinking record company in these parts pushes as The Big Thing. But when it's good (Opeth, In Flames, Therion, Tiamat), it's very good. And when it's bad (Backside Boys, N'Scrub), it's very bad.

It is a bit depressing how the US products get pushed down our throats. If LimpDik or Mudvayne could play more than one freaking chord, they might actually deserve some respect. They all would have been hair bands 10 years ago.

Howebber, I've found that a good chunk of the bands that come out of New Orleans do a better job at writing than most. Maybe that's because people actually give a damn about the music in the swamp. Any project that Dax Riggs is involved in will be worth your time. Acid Bath put out a lot of ideas in two albums, and his effort with Agents of Oblivion (RIP) was probably the best of last year. His current project (no releases yet) is something called "Deadboy and the Elephantmen". Watch for them and get any Acid Bath and Agents you can get your hands on.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Glad to see this thread is carrying out it's intended purpose. Alright, responding randomly to various points...

Good point on Cryptopsy, I forgot about them. They're from Montreal, right? (We westerners sometimes have to remind ourselves that that's part of the same country. Heh.)

The point on the mountains and trees etc. in Scandanavia is a good one, and actually (to me) works as a bit of an extention of my "Canada argument". We have nice mountains and trees in Canada, too, probably equal or to a higher degree than Scandanavia, but, although there are a few good bands in Canada, not nearly as many as there are over there, and with over 30 million (I believe we have the higher population), certainly not as many good bands per capita. This suggests that the industrialization of the U.S. may be somewhat of a contributing factor, but can't be the only one.

I'm sure there is really crappy music coming out of Sweden as well, but my point was that there is no (or little, if the New Orleans guys are, as you say, pretty good) really really good music coming out of the U.S.

The poor artists point makes some sense, but have you read about how Mikael Akerfeldt and Jonas Renske were living for awhile there?

The final point that occurs to me is that the U.S. really IS the market. It sports millions more available consumers than any of the other aforementioned nations. As a result, this is where commercial art will resonate the most loudly with developing artists, and, as a result, this is where our "bubblegum" music will come from. Because, consumers are consumers and N'Sync and co. are, I'm sure, just as popular in Sweden as they are in the United States, but because the US is the target for this commercial crap, it gets hard to find anything else. Perhaps in some of the various towns in Sweden where godly bands like Opeth come from, they are exposed to more interesting music from a young age.

Here's a question for everyone:

Where did everyone purchase their copy of Blackwater Park? Is it easy to find in your hometown? Does more or less every music store carry it?

AND! ...considering this one seems to have gotten really good distribution from Koch, how difficult was it for everyone to find Orchid, Morningrise, MAYH, and Still Life?

I know that I'm lucky in that here in Vancouver we have a metal specialty store called Scrape records that (if your timing is right) keeps lots of underground metal in stock, whereas the HMV's, Musicworld's, even the goddamn Virgin Megastore doesn't hold stock of certain albums. If I was living in Kamloops, Kelowna, or even, say, Calgary I might be screwed.

 

[Lakestream]

Ok, here comes some information from the inside =)
(ie. I live in Sweden)

True, we have quite high taxes, which reduces the overall poverty, but I think the main reason why lots of good music come from Sweden is that we have a thing called "Kulturskolan"...
that would be like "Culture-school" in English. It's a organisation that teaches music (mostly) at a VERY cheap price (almost entirely financed through taxes). This means that quite a bunch of swedish kids get a pretty good musical education

As for the price being low, I can say that a half year costs around 60$, which IS really, really cheap. For that, you get one lesson/week, and each lesson is 30 minutes (I think). There are
also free courses which you can sign up to if you're currently in
one of their courses......for example, I took a course in musical theory (about a year....40 minutes/lesson 1 lesson/week).

Ok, maybe I've been raving a little, but this might be a reason why lots of good music comes from Sweden

 

[Druardim]

I do believe it is true that Scandinavian bands produce much more
moving music. I really dig bands like Opeth, Dark Tranquility, In Flames, Emperor,etc and wish
that there were bands similar in vein in the US. I mean there are some, here and there from time to time. The UK has produced some of my favorites ; Iron Maiden, Sabbath, Early Priest, even to Solstice and My Dying Bride. American bands, particuarly underground or extreme, seem to fall in the Death Metal/Technical Death metal category...only a few black metal ones and hardly you ever find just all out Melodic Death metal or substance oriented metal unless it
being some weird power/progg metal which is just too overly saturated with arpegio technicality. Opeth are great song writers as well their music consists of
beautiful meloncholic yet inspiring themes. I can recomend an American band which gives me the same feeling...it's tad more in the doom metal genre but in my opinion were way ahead of their time as far as depressive yet moving music. The band is Trouble , particularly their 80's stuff (Psalm 9 , The Skull, Run To The Light) . I mean , I personally find it hard to believe they are an American band just for their musical content. Alot of people get a misconception from this band because of their lyrics taking a somewhat christian perspective, but if you listen to them they are very much deep and not preachy but meloncholic yet searching for a way. The music is just phenomenal, ranging from slow heavy single note harmonized riffs to great leads and epic song structures(depending on the song). Anyways, regardless of this band and it being a dfferent style , I cannot say there is any modern band which can be compared to Opeth, DT, or In Flames. I am attempting to create good music with my band.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Thank you, Lakestream.

 

[Lakestream]

you're welcome

 

[noname4u]

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn

Here's a question for everyone:

Where did everyone purchase their copy of Blackwater Park? Is it easy to find in your hometown? Does more or less every music store carry it?

AND! ...considering this one seems to have gotten really good distribution from Koch, how difficult was it for everyone to find Orchid, Morningrise, MAYH, and Still Life?

As far as I know, Still Life never got a proper release over here. I had to get that one by mail order, and I've never seen it here. I first saw MAYH about a year after it came out. Blackwater Park was at the fifth place I went to over in Illinois, and I haven't seen it anywhere else. I saw Orchid and Morningrise once. I moved far away from that store, and haven't seen them since. So no, Opeth is not easy to find, and mail order is probably my best bet.

And yes, there is very little good music coming out of these parts, and much more coming out of Canada (especially Devin Townsend projects). But it is there - you just have to know where to look.

 

[Nevyn]

Originally posted by Tommy-G
For example, the jail system over there - something a few bands are familiar with - puts you in jail for 10 years for murder, and lets you visit your family on the weekends. Very non-punitive.

It's true that you can get 10 years for murder here in Sweden, but we do put away people for longer times than that also... ;-) But your point is correct, our jail system differs a lot compared to countries in mainland Europe and not to mention the US...


And Lakestream, you're correct about "Kommunala Musikskolan" (maybe could be translated to Public Musical School), it's great and I think it is important to the musical "atmosphere" in Sweden.
My mother, being a single parent and not having a well-paid job, could still put me through 10 years of cello-playing.

 

[Demonspell]

I bought my copy of Blackwater Park through mailorder so I can get the import....I did buy my copies of Morningrise and MAYH at a local record store.

 

[Druardim]

I picked up "Blackwater Park" as well as all my Opeth and metal cd/lp's at a local record store around here. They have a very impressive metal section (it is a huge aisle in itself!!) They have alot of european metal ...black/death/doom/etc. The cds cost between $12.99 to $14.99 dollar range. Plus they have a wide selection of metal shirts. I picked up my Dark Tranquility "The Gallery" shirt as well as my Opeth "Orchid" shirt.

 

[HoserHellspawn]

Wow.
That's sweet. I've never actually seen an Opeth shirt in person...

Anyways, I asked that question to maybe get sort of a feel on how difficult it is for people to track down really good music (for this example, Opeth). I was kinda curious if their records are more easily accessable in their homeland Sweden, or not.

 

[Nevyn]

Originally posted by HoserHellspawn
I was kinda curious if their records are more easily accessable in their homeland Sweden, or not.

Most "metal" stores have the albums. If you go to a record store that doesn't have them it's not difficult for them to get it from the swedish distro company (House of Kicks). Shouldn't take more than a week.

 

[Lakestream]

I don't know about the rest of Sweden, but the local cd-store
here in Västerås have a pretty good variety of metal-albums.
I've never seen that many Opeth albums here, but at least there
always is a copy of Blackwater Park there. Every now and then, you can also find MAYH, Orchid or Morningrise.....but they seem to disappear pretty damn fast