Jens Bogren stem master comparison.

[Keregioz]

Hi guys, I thought that this could be interesting or even helpful to some of you, especially for the most inexperienced at mixing/mastering like me, and could maybe give you a sense of what mastering can do to your mix. I know some of this is information I wouldn't mind knowing while I was mixing my band's album.

So anyway, a few months ago I sent the stems of our album to Jens Bogren for stem mastering. I also asked for some mixing feedback on a couple of songs. I consider myself a beginner at mixing compared to most of the guys in these forums and generally I do not have much confidence in my mixes so I decided to go with stem mastering instead of regular mastering in order for Bogren to have more flexibility processing the mix and potentially correct any mistakes I would make.

It turned out the basic mistake I made was mixing using a limiter on the master bus to bring the mix volume to "mastering level". The basic problem caused by this was the volume of the snare. Here's what Bogren himself told me during the mix feedback:

I would highly recommend to mix everything without the limiter, or at least reducing it quite a bit. I also listen through a limiter when I mix to get a better idea of how everything will sound in the end, although, depending on the song, I personally only let the limiter work very slightly doing about a dB or so of gain reduction. The amount of GR does of course depend on which kind of limiter that is used. But, there's kind of a "myth" that the snare has to be mixed extremely loud in order for it to survive mastering but the fact is that most mastering studios, especially when it comes to metal, don't use limiters in order to reach the final loudness. There are other better ways to reach loudness without losing the transients of the drums.

I usually recommend to mix the snare about one dB louder than "intended" in order to still have a nice transient and punchy sound after the mastering process.

I most definitely don't want to change your way of mixing since I really think the songs sound nice but the reason I'm recommending this is that I believe that the songs will sound even better, much more alive, dynamic and open, if the snare is mixed more like it would sound without a limiter. The levels of everything sounds good on the limited reference tracks but it's quite obvious that it's very limited since the tracks really don't have any dynamic to them and it's also audible how the the whole mix is ducking when the limiter is pushing down the snare.

So, I think it would sound much better if this kind of heavy limiting won't be needed during mastering. I could of course just limit the drum stem in order to control the snare but I think the overall drum sound would sound better if it's adjusted at the mixing stage instead of smashed just to bring down the snare during mastering.

Unfortunately, at that stage it wasn't possible to mix everything again without the limiter, and to tell you the truth I wasn't sure I would do it right anyway. Instead, I suggested to Jens to give him the snare on a separate stem so he could adjust the volume accordingly during mastering and thankfully he agreed it was a good idea.

So, here's how the track sounded before mastering, with the snare in the original volume and with a limiter (ozone) in the master bus to make it as loud as the master:
WAV, mp3(320kbps)
Here's without any compression on the master bus (had to lower the snare quite a bit cause it was too loud without the limiter):
WAV, mp3(320Kbps)
And here's the final master by Jens Bogren:
WAV, mp3(320Kbps)

 

[Via Noctis]

Thanks for posting, if he didn't use a limiter I wonder how he did it.

 

[Max Morton]

Thanks for the topic, that's interesting. Downloading the files right now.

Thanks for posting, if he didn't use a limiter I wonder how he did it.

I think, it's mostly clipping (converters). Or using a clipper when mixing ITB.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Thanks for the topic, that's interesting. Downloading the files right now.


I think, it's mostly clipping (converters). Or using a clipper when mixing ITB.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but isn't a clipper just a more extreme variant of a limiter? Which would make what Jens is talking about worse, not better?

 

[Max Morton]

Sorry if I'm being dense, but isn't a clipper just a more extreme variant of a limiter? Which would make what Jens is talking about worse, not better?

Well, not exactly. Clipper doesn't kill the snare until you really slam it. But it's more dangerous in terms of digital crackling when toms, vocals or, say, subdrops reach it's threshold.

Most wide-spread way to boost loudness without burying the snare is using a clipper until it's "almost there" and then adding a db or a bit more of your favourite limiter.

Now, if the snare is too loud in the mix, it will remain too loud after applying a clipper, and the mastering engineer is forced to use tools which bury it's attack.

 

[AMS]

Great sounding track - well done!

I would second Jens Bogren's advice on limiting. It reduces the mastering engineer's options quite significantly.

 

[Klosure]

But.... You can mix into one and then just take it of at the end maybe give the mastering engineer a copy with your limiter on to hear your intention?

 

[DullElysium]

But.... You can mix into one and then just take it of at the end maybe give the mastering engineer a copy with your limiter on to hear your intention?

The whole point was that when you mix through a limiter you tend to push the snare (for an example) up so you can hear it. And when the limiter is off the snare track is too loud. And that might be a problem for the masterin engineer as he could've gotten the snare audible with less volume too.

Please correct me if i'm wrong. I toi tend to push the snare.

 

[Donovan S.]

The whole point was that when you mix through a limiter you tend to push the snare (for an example) up so you can hear it. And when the limiter is off the snare track is too loud. And that might be a problem for the masterin engineer as he could've gotten the snare audible with less volume too.

Was just about to post this.

This comparison was pretty eye-opening for me. I won't be mixing through an aggressive mastering chain any longer, as I have been having trouble with the snare drum in particular on my masters. Thanks for posting this Keregioz.

 

[CreptorStatus]

This was great and super helpful. Thanks for posting these!

 

[AMS]

But.... You can mix into one and then just take it of at the end maybe give the mastering engineer a copy with your limiter on to hear your intention?

Absolutely - there are no rules when it comes to mixing. I personally also don't have any issues with bus compression, if it creates the kind of sound you like. Basically, make the track sound as good as you can and leave the mastering engineer to worry about getting the loudness up to a competitive level.

 

[mva801]

There's saturation and clipping. Clipping your drum bus or mix to tame the drum transients does NOT work like a compressor. If you have a loud snare, it triggers the compressor on the ENTIRE mix, creating pumping and killing the transient. The clipper just kinda shaves off the top without affecting the rest of the mix. You do have to be careful though with the toms and vocals hitting a clipper when they poke out. So many albums today have very audible clipping in these stages (Deftones, Alice in Chains) that sounds like it's caused by clipping and/ or excessive limiting.

The good mastering engineers use a combination of everything in small steps, along with careful eqing, and I'm sure some magic pixie dust, to get what they get.

It's pretty obvious here the difference between the Jens mastered track and the ozone one. Sounded pretty damn good before, but Jens gave it that extra presence in all the right places and just made the snare sit perfect. Awesome stuff!

 

[Klosure]

WEll.... thats cool....


I know one of my fav mixers users L3 multi and l2 and it works great but he takes it of for mastering. better too much than not enough i say!

 

[MultiM]

Most wide-spread way to boost loudness without burying the snare is using a clipper until it's "almost there" and then adding a db or a bit more of your favourite limiter.

When do You know when it's "almost there"?

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

When do You know when it's "almost there"?

When this happens:

 

[ForHerDeadEyes]

And to add some info, Jens mixes with a compressor on the masterbus..

 

[Elethan]

And to add some info, Jens mixes with a compressor on the masterbus..

I was just about to ask that

Awesome, eye-opening info. Thanks for posting!

 

[cobhc]

Any recommended reference reading for mastering using clipping?

 

[MultiM]

Any recommended reference reading for mastering using clipping?

+1

 

[HRdrummer]

Any recommended reference reading for mastering using clipping?

+2