Keys

[ishbu123]

I dunno if this is the appropriate place to post this but I've been struggling with understanding playing in different keys for a while...I dunno why but I just can't grasp the big picture...can anyone dumb it down for me or refer me to any info that might help. Thanks. I can read music pretty well so I know how to play a song but if I'm improvising or trying to play along I just goof around till I find the right notes, because I can't really figure out how notes connect.

 

[Chris_Broderick]

I dunno if this is the appropriate place to post this but I've been struggling with understanding playing in different keys for a while...I dunno why but I just can't grasp the big picture...can anyone dumb it down for me or refer me to any info that might help. Thanks. I can read music pretty well so I know how to play a song but if I'm improvising or trying to play along I just goof around till I find the right notes, because I can't really figure out how notes connect.

Hey ishbu123:7881547,

that is a huge question, one that I don't think could be answered in a post but I would recommend going on youtube and searching Joe Satriani modes.
That should steer you in the right direction. I am actually thinking about releasing a theory and phasing book of my own (I know It doesn't help you out now Ahahaha), because I take a different approach to Modal playing and borrowing then most.

Hope this helps, Chris.

 

[Kohlrabihaus]

Hey ishbu123:7881547,

that is a huge question, one that I don't think could be answered in a post but I would recommend going on youtube and searching Joe Satriani modes.
That should steer you in the right direction. I am actually thinking about releasing a theory and phasing book of my own (I know It doesn't help you out now Ahahaha), because I take a different approach to Modal playing and borrowing then most.

Hope this helps, Chris.

chris, now THAT would be pretty bad ass, man!!!
but, we are still waiting for this instructional DVD, you know that!!!
can you explain (briefly at least), how your modal playing does differ from other players? that's a really interesting topic, I think!!!


as for the new dude :
uhm yeah... i bet, there are plenty of good books on the scale/ chord connection! there's kinda standard work in germany, that helped me, when I was exploring these things. there's an english version available here:

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Haunschild-New-Harmony-Book-Frank/dp/3927190683/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229390073&sr=8-1[/ame]

you may get something similar, or try to find a theory teacher and take some lessons!

cheerz

oh, I forgot about this:
http://www.musictheory.net/ just check the major and later the minor scale section!!!

 

[Chris_Broderick]

chris, now THAT would be pretty bad ass, man!!!
but, we are still waiting for this instructional DVD, you know that!!!
can you explain (briefly at least), how your modal playing does differ from other players? that's a really interesting topic, I think!!!


as for the new dude :
uhm yeah... i bet, there are plenty of good books on the scale/ chord connection! there's kinda standard work in germany, that helped me, when I was exploring these things. there's an english version available here:

http://www.amazon.com/Haunschild-Ne...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229390073&sr=8-1

you may get something similar, or try to find a theory teacher and take some lessons!

cheerz

oh, I forgot about this:
http://www.musictheory.net/ just check the major and later the minor scale section!!!

Hey Kohlrabihaus,

How have you been? To answer you question in a nut shell. Most guitarist see everything in a guitarist’s way (meaning a patterns of visual/muscle memory sort of way). If you ask a guitarist to play a mode the pattern is a set fingering and way of thinking. If you stop to think how a pianist might think about applying a mode they would only see a change in the number #'s and b's used on the keyboard against a given harmony. So for example if I wanted to superimpose Lydian over an Emaj9 I see a key signature of 5 sharps (simple right?). This transcends patterns and opens up the entire fret board without having to jump to a particular pattern or reference point. For some reason most guitarists never learn to think beyond their fret boards (to see the notes). Also, one other thing I love to do is enharmonically spell notes in a tonality to see how it can create other harmonic possibilities. This would be just the beginning.



Take care, Chris.

 

[Kohlrabihaus]

Hey, Chris!
This entire year in fact, has seen me floating in heaven, but also creeping the deepest gutter, so to speak...
Well the thing is, I actually know exactly what you are talking about!
I started to study music in march this year, and we HAVE to play piano, like it is usual, right? And due to this, I did realize how easy it is to play scales on the keyboard, and how much easier it is, to sight read for piano, then for guitar... (that is getting the notes together, and so on).
Those connections you mentioned, that are some things I am working on at the moment. I can feel the greater idea behind it, but its a way to go.. wait, that is the beginning for me, so get this book out NOW!!! I mean it! Need it tomorrow, haha!

Oh, and congrats to the great DVD recording with Nevermore, I can remember banging my head off, at these gigs (Bochum and W:O:A)

 

[shred2112]

Hey Kohlrabihaus,

How have you been? To answer you question in a nut shell. Most guitarist see everything in a guitarist’s way (meaning a patterns of visual/muscle memory sort of way). If you ask a guitarist to play a mode the pattern is a set fingering and way of thinking. If you stop to think how a pianist might think about applying a mode they would only see a change in the number #'s and b's used on the keyboard against a given harmony. So for example if I wanted to superimpose Lydian over an Emaj9 I see a key signature of 5 sharps (simple right?). This transcends patterns and opens up the entire fret board without having to jump to a particular pattern or reference point. For some reason most guitarists never learn to think beyond their fret boards (to see the notes). Also, one other thing I love to do is enharmonically spell notes in a tonality to see how it can create other harmonic possibilities. This would be just the beginning.



Take care, Chris.

That seems like a very strange way to conceive of modes, Chris! What you said here is theoretically ok, but I fail to see how that could help a guitarist. First, I believe one must know all of the basic major scale patterns (on the guitar neck), then know the spellings of all 12 major scales. THEN, derive the seven modes from each key. For example: Yes , the key of C Major has no flats or sharps, and should be read as: C D E F G A B (C). then, assign a modal name to each one of these tones:

C= C Ionian
D= D Dorian
E= E Phrygian
F= F Lydian
G= G Mixolydian
A= A Aeolian
B= B Locrian

If You already know how to play in the key of C major all over you fretboard (using your scale patterns), then you can already play in all of these modes!

I don't know ANY guitarists that have transcended scale patterns, and play the guitar by thinking of each key by thinking of sharps and flats! Also, if you are able to do this, then whatever you play will be in a "scale pattern" anyway! There's no way around it. Being aware of the key signature definitely helps, but you must also be aware of the chords and arpeggios, in order to effectively find chord tones and guide tones.

You mention that, if you want to play in E Lydian, you think "5 sharps" . This is really the "parent" key of B Major, but we're playing in the 4th mode of it. Using your method, a guitarist would have to think "I have to play F#, C#, G#, D#, A#". Then he would have to map all of these out on the fretboard. BUT, if a guitarist just thought of playing in the key of B major (while being cognizant of the E major chord tones), he would be able to use his major scale knowledge immediately and quickly. By the way, I am a pianist, and most pianists would think " E Lydian is B Major on the 4th". We don't usually think of the spelling of key signatures, since the major scale patterns already provide us with this information.

I'm not necessarily trying to contradict you, and I know this is a topic that requires much study, but I saw your post and had to put in my two cents worth! Most people (and books, methods) make this way too complex and too bogged down with circuitous theoretical reasoning. There is a much simpler and user-friendly way to do this!

 

[Chris_Broderick]

That seems like a very strange way to conceive of modes, Chris! What you said here is theoretically ok, but I fail to see how that could help a guitarist. First, I believe one must know all of the basic major scale patterns (on the guitar neck), then know the spellings of all 12 major scales. THEN, derive the seven modes from each key. For example: Yes , the key of C Major has no flats or sharps, and should be read as: C D E F G A B (C). then, assign a modal name to each one of these tones:

C= C Ionian
D= D Dorian
E= E Phrygian
F= F Lydian
G= G Mixolydian
A= A Aeolian
B= B Locrian

If You already know how to play in the key of C major all over you fretboard (using your scale patterns), then you can already play in all of these modes!

I don't know ANY guitarists that have transcended scale patterns, and play the guitar by thinking of each key by thinking of sharps and flats! Also, if you are able to do this, then whatever you play will be in a "scale pattern" anyway! There's no way around it. Being aware of the key signature definitely helps, but you must also be aware of the chords and arpeggios, in order to effectively find chord tones and guide tones.

You mention that, if you want to play in E Lydian, you think "5 sharps" . This is really the "parent" key of B Major, but we're playing in the 4th mode of it. Using your method, a guitarist would have to think "I have to play F#, C#, G#, D#, A#". Then he would have to map all of these out on the fretboard. BUT, if a guitarist just thought of playing in the key of B major (while being cognizant of the E major chord tones), he would be able to use his major scale knowledge immediately and quickly. By the way, I am a pianist, and most pianists would think " E Lydian is B Major on the 4th". We don't usually think of the spelling of key signatures, since the major scale patterns already provide us with this information.

I'm not necessarily trying to contradict you, and I know this is a topic that requires much study, but I saw your post and had to put in my two cents worth! Most people (and books, methods) make this way too complex and too bogged down with circuitous theoretical reasoning. There is a much simpler and user-friendly way to do this!

Ahahahah you will just have to trust me, and when I publish something that explains my thinking fully then we can debate it. I will tell you that what you have written down was the start of my thinking and that all of my students that I have worked on this idea with agree in it's simplicity.

Take care, Chris.

 

[Shredfiend]

Fingerings never = modes. There is such a misconception in the guitar community. Almost all the guitar instruction material out there is wrong and I can't count how many 'shredders' misuse the modes.

Modes are more about the harmony underlying the family of notes your playing and note selection/emphasis. Not permutations of the major scale your utilizing. I can easily express any modal tonality from anyone or all the major scale shapes.

I think musicians on other instrument would just shake there head if they realized how fragmented most guitar players visualize the fingerboard. The reality is I see a scale family all the way across the neck as one big mental 'picture'. It just moves as I modulate to various keys/family's.

 

[Dunununuuu-NUNUNU]

That seems like a very strange way to conceive of modes, Chris! What you said here is theoretically ok, but I fail to see how that could help a guitarist. First, I believe one must know all of the basic major scale patterns (on the guitar neck), then know the spellings of all 12 major scales. THEN, derive the seven modes from each key. For example: Yes , the key of C Major has no flats or sharps, and should be read as: C D E F G A B (C). then, assign a modal name to each one of these tones:

C= C Ionian
D= D Dorian
E= E Phrygian
F= F Lydian
G= G Mixolydian
A= A Aeolian
B= B Locrian

If You already know how to play in the key of C major all over you fretboard (using your scale patterns), then you can already play in all of these modes!

I don't know ANY guitarists that have transcended scale patterns, and play the guitar by thinking of each key by thinking of sharps and flats! Also, if you are able to do this, then whatever you play will be in a "scale pattern" anyway! There's no way around it. Being aware of the key signature definitely helps, but you must also be aware of the chords and arpeggios, in order to effectively find chord tones and guide tones.

You mention that, if you want to play in E Lydian, you think "5 sharps" . This is really the "parent" key of B Major, but we're playing in the 4th mode of it. Using your method, a guitarist would have to think "I have to play F#, C#, G#, D#, A#". Then he would have to map all of these out on the fretboard. BUT, if a guitarist just thought of playing in the key of B major (while being cognizant of the E major chord tones), he would be able to use his major scale knowledge immediately and quickly. By the way, I am a pianist, and most pianists would think " E Lydian is B Major on the 4th". We don't usually think of the spelling of key signatures, since the major scale patterns already provide us with this information.

I'm not necessarily trying to contradict you, and I know this is a topic that requires much study, but I saw your post and had to put in my two cents worth! Most people (and books, methods) make this way too complex and too bogged down with circuitous theoretical reasoning. There is a much simpler and user-friendly way to do this!

Of course you are going to be playing the same notes! It's just thinking beyond the fretboard. I think maybe, this is atleast how I think of it, that you should think of the music (phrasing and so on) you want to play - then play it. Rather than thinking this and this on the fretboard will sound right. If you do it that way you are also more likely to follow only prelearned patterns - wich is cool to, but in the end it's how it sounds - not how it's played that matters.

my 2 cents. Hope it didn't turn out TOO messy

 

[guitarguru777]

I have an excel spreadsheet with all the modes listed and their tonal centers, chords you can use with them and all of that. I really think the easiest way to learn the modes it to play them over their tonal centers so you can really hear the difference. If anyone would like a copy of this spread sheet feel free to email me at jcohenlv (at) gmail.com

Maybe Ill post some audio examples so you can really hear what I am talking about.

 

[guitarguru777]

You can access the HTML version of the spreadsheet and the audio file at

http://www.jasoncohenitservices.com/lessons/scales_and_modes_files/

Enjoy