Levelling confusion!

[InAbsentia_]

I'm reading up on levelling and according to the resource I'm having a look at it lays out a bare bones map for how your mix should be set up, it says to keep the Kick at 0 dB, Snare at -2 dB and keep guitars at -15 dB etc. This is apparently done so you have more headroom for mastering.

I don't know how this is supposed to work out. If I pull down to the faders on my guitar tracks to -15 dB they're really faint and have literally zero balls.

Where am I supposed to be looking at this dB rating? On the master bus or in the meter on the guitar/drum etc tracks?

Also, can someone explain in plain words what 0dbfs and 0dbVU are? Thanks!

 

[Dalinkwent48@aim.com]

Audio Level Advice for Recording and Mixing
A little something about gain-staging,for those who dont know

Both of these were on the same page as the thread you just started

 

[InAbsentia_]

Audio Level Advice for Recording and Mixing
A little something about gain-staging,for those who dont know

Both of these were on the same page as the thread you just started

Thanks for that. I'll read up on those. I noticed straight away that it's once again using the 0dbfs and 0dbVU terms that I don't really understand conceptually though

 

[jimwilbourne]

whatever you read was crap.
there's no SET way to have your faders. every project is different and should be treated as such.

instead:

start with everything at Unity. this is 0.0 db.
then mixing DOWN from there. drop volumes instead of raising them.
I'm not going to go into exactly how to mix, levels because it's genre specific.
once everything sounds okay, create buses for groups so that you only have to work with 1 fader per instrument.
so for example: you have have 4 of the same guitar track. buss them all to 1 Aux track.

so now you have a drum mix, a guitar mix, bass, vocals, etc. at this point you're going to wait to solo each instrument and start mixing UP.
I recommend starting with the drums. make sure you don't raise any fader above Unity (again, 0.0 db) you loudest fader or faders for each part shouldn't surpass 0.0 db. the extra stuff up there is your back up plan. but you usually won't need it.
solo each bus group and do the same.

then go back to the Aux mixes and mix each Bus together. making sure, again that you don't mix past unity.
I recommend keeping an eye on your Master Fader as well. to make sure things don't get out of hand.

I'm not sure if I explained this clear enough, but this is a very good approach.

 

[InAbsentia_]

whatever you read was crap.
there's no SET way to have your faders. every project is different and should be treated as such.

instead:

start with everything at Unity. this is 0.0 db.
then mixing DOWN from there. drop volumes instead of raising them.
I'm not going to go into exactly how to mix, levels because it's genre specific.
once everything sounds okay, create buses for groups so that you only have to work with 1 fader per instrument.
so for example: you have have 4 of the same guitar track. buss them all to 1 Aux track.

so now you have a drum mix, a guitar mix, bass, vocals, etc. at this point you're going to wait to solo each instrument and start mixing UP.
I recommend starting with the drums. make sure you don't raise any fader above Unity (again, 0.0 db) you loudest fader or faders for each part shouldn't surpass 0.0 db. the extra stuff up there is your back up plan. but you usually won't need it.
solo each bus group and do the same.

then go back to the Aux mixes and mix each Bus together. making sure, again that you don't mix past unity.
I recommend keeping an eye on your Master Fader as well. to make sure things don't get out of hand.

I'm not sure if I explained this clear enough, but this is a very good approach.

Thanks a lot. Really appreciate that. The rest makes perfect sense, I'd just like to ask though, in a DAW are the faders set to Unity by default? (The little black line on the fader)? I just get confused by all the numbers around the meter which make no sense to me!

If that's 0 dB, then what dB rating does stuff start clipping at? ('The red').

 

[jimwilbourne]

Thanks a lot. Really appreciate that. The rest makes perfect sense, I'd just like to ask though, in a DAW are the faders set to Unity by default? (The little black line on the fader)? I just get confused by all the numbers around the meter which make no sense to me!

If that's 0 dB, then what dB rating does stuff start clipping at? ('The red').

every DAW that I've ever used defaults faders to 0 db.
I believe that some daws give you different amounts of headroom. but if your signal lights up the seperate red second of the meter (the clip indicator) then that's a pretty good sign of clipping.

clip level based on mixing boards is different depending on whether it's a DAW or a hardware mixer as well.

 

[Trevoire520]

You need to read up on some basic audio theory dude.

dBFS is decibels (dB) full scale. 0dBFS is digital maximum. Nothing can go past this point without clipping. So in the digital realm levels are measured in decibels down from full scale. For example, -6dBFS is 6 decibels down from full scale. A signal that reaches 0dBFS will clip, not good, you should never be aiming to track or mix that hot anyway.

dBVU is a measure of volume unit's in analogue audio (mixing desks, compressors, preamps, converters etc) You should be aiming for your signals to be around 0dBVU in analogue world to get the best balance between low noise and low distortion.

0dBVU (Analogue) is equal to about -18dBFS (Digital)

The only reason you think your tracks "lack balls" when you turn them down is because they're quieter! As you increase the level of a sound the frequency response of your ear changes and you perceive less mids and more treble and bass, making everyhing sound "bigger"

Track at reasonable levels (around -18dBFS) and don't let anything clip while mixing.

Start with all your faders at unity as explained above and when you go "I can't hear the *******" DONT TURN IT UP! Turn everything else down instead. This will stop you from pushing all your faders up causing them to clip. Don't worry about the loudness just now, you'll get that in mastering later.

Don't listen to other people telling you "your bass should be this level, your kick should be that level, etc etc"
This is different for every single song. No one can give you numbers for your song that they've never heard before. Just listen and judge it yourself.

 

[InAbsentia_]

You need to read up on some basic audio theory dude.

dBFS is decibels (dB) full scale. 0dBFS is digital maximum. Nothing can go past this point without clipping. So in the digital realm levels are measured in decibels down from full scale. For example, -6dBFS is 6 decibels down from full scale. A signal that reaches 0dBFS will clip, not good, you should never be aiming to track or mix that hot anyway.

dBVU is a measure of volume unit's in analogue audio (mixing desks, compressors, preamps, converters etc) You should be aiming for your signals to be around 0dBVU in analogue world to get the best balance between low noise and low distortion.

0dBVU (Analogue) is equal to about -18dBFS (Digital)

The only reason you think your tracks "lack balls" when you turn them down is because they're quieter! As you increase the level of a sound the frequency response of your ear changes and you perceive less mids and more treble and bass, making everyhing sound "bigger"

Track at reasonable levels (around -18dBFS) and don't let anything clip while mixing.

Start with all your faders at unity as explained above and when you go "I can't hear the *******" DONT TURN IT UP! Turn everything else down instead. This will stop you from pushing all your faders up causing them to clip. Don't worry about the loudness just now, you'll get that in mastering later.

Don't listen to other people telling you "your bass should be this level, your kick should be that level, etc etc"
This is different for every single song. No one can give you numbers for your song that they've never heard before. Just listen and judge it yourself.

Thank you. I finally understand this stuff! That's where I got confused, I thought if 0 dBfs is where stuff begins to clip, and 0.0 db is Unity, why doesn't my stuff clip at Unity? See what I mean?

 

[Omega_Void]

Thanks a lot. Really appreciate that. The rest makes perfect sense, I'd just like to ask though, in a DAW are the faders set to Unity by default? (The little black line on the fader)? I just get confused by all the numbers around the meter which make no sense to me!

If that's 0 dB, then what dB rating does stuff start clipping at? ('The red').

A decibel is not a unit of measurement, it is a way of comparing two different measurements.

On the faders the 0dB line is the point at which the fader itself makes no difference between the level of the input and the output level. This is a gain of 1, or unity.

On the meters the 0dB marks the point at which there is no difference between the output level, and the level at which digital clipping occurs in an integer-based digital format.

Both are marked "dB", but for the fader the reference is the input signal and for the meter the reference is 0dBFS (Full Scale). They are not comparing the same thing.

The connection is that if the meter is reading -6dB when the fader is at unity, then you could turn the fader up to +6dB at the most before you are into the red.

Mixing software nowadays uses floating point digital in which 0dBFS can be exceeded without clipping, but a lot of plugins will sound bad if their input is above 0dB. The master output must never exceed 0dB because the digital-to-audio converters do not use floating point system, and will clip if 0dBFS is exceeded.

0dBVU (Analogue) is equal to about -18dBFS (Digital)

Not necessarily, it depends on the converter.

Also 0dBVU is a different signal voltage in different equipment. If the headroom is +4dBu, then it will clip at 1.74 volts. If it is -10dBV, it will clip at 0.447 volts. Clearly the optimum voltage will be different, and the VU scale calibrated accordingly. So a VU meter on one piece of gear says nothing in relation to any other piece of gear.

 

[InAbsentia_]

A decibel is not a unit of measurement, it is a way of comparing two different measurements.

On the faders the 0dB line is the point at which the fader itself makes no difference between the level of the input and the output level. This is a gain of 1, or unity.

On the meters the 0dB marks the point at which there is no difference between the output level, and the level at which digital clipping occurs in an integer-based digital format.

Both are marked "dB", but for the fader the reference is the input signal and for the meter the reference is 0dBFS (Full Scale). They are not comparing the same thing.

The connection is that if the meter is reading -6dB when the fader is at unity, then you could turn the fader up to +6dB at the most before you are into the red.

Mixing software nowadays uses floating point digital in which 0dBFS can be exceeded without clipping, but a lot of plugins will sound bad if their input is above 0dB. The master output must never exceed 0dB because the digital-to-audio converters do not use floating point system, and will clip if 0dBFS is exceeded.



Not necessarily, it depends on the converter.

Also 0dBVU is a different signal voltage in different equipment. If the headroom is +4dBu, then it will clip at 1.74 volts. If it is -10dBV, it will clip at 0.447 volts. Clearly the optimum voltage will be different, and the VU scale calibrated accordingly. So a VU meter on one piece of gear says nothing in relation to any other piece of gear.

This is extremely informative. Thanks. It's crazy how even the most basic stuff with regards to mixing requires quite a bit of understanding to grasp. I've got about 10 more concepts to understand (EQ, compression, limiting ('brickwalling'), automation, volume envelopes etc) and it's so daunting it makes me just want to quite diving into audio engineering in the first place. There's no clear resource to study up on either, even if there is, it's for genre's different to the one's I want to record (Hard rock, thrash).

I'm in med school, and I swear, this stuff is more difficult to understand than what I study normally!

Do you need to properly sit down and study this stuff to understand it? I don't get it. Have all the people who get awesome mixes down here read through countless books and stuff?

 

[Omega_Void]

Do you need to properly sit down and study this stuff to understand it? I don't get it. Have all the people who get awesome mixes down here read through countless books and stuff?

Not necessarily. My mixing is not at all awesome, but...

Understanding levelling is a good place to start, 'cos if you get that wrong you'll never get optimal results.

You also need to understand phase-related issues, how time offsets can cause comb-filtering when there are two tracks with common source material etc. Otherwise you can spend a lot of time wondering why your audio sounds "weird" when you mix tracks together, but fine when listened to solo.

It's quite easy to understand if you can find a good explanation (preferably with diagrams), but if you have to figure it out from first principles it can take a while.

Stuff like eq, compression, hard/soft clipping etc. are quite straightforward in what they do, the challenge is learning to recognise when and how much to apply to get the effect you want.

Just don't expect to find a recipe which gets good results simply by blindly applying specific settings to particular tracks. There's no formula, you have to go with your ears (which means you need good monitor speakers and room acoustics).

You pick it up as you go along, and stuff will fall into place as you continue to learn. Don't take anything as gospel just 'cos you read it somewhere, and don't be afraid to break the rules.

 

[jimwilbourne]

If you want to dive deeper, I totally recommend purchasing the book: "Mixing Audio" by Roey Izhaki.

it may be THE BEST book I've EVER read for all things mixing. it includes a DVD with sound samples of almost everything that's addressed.
It's kinda long. it's like reading a text book. at some point, you HAVE to stop reading because your brain stops retaining information. haha
I don't think I could read it more than 30 minutes at a time.
and that's a good thing because it covers everything in more detail and understanding than any other book on mixing I have ever read.

 

[InAbsentia_]

If you want to dive deeper, I totally recommend purchasing the book: "Mixing Audio" by Roey Izhaki.

it may be THE BEST book I've EVER read for all things mixing. it includes a DVD with sound samples of almost everything that's addressed.
It's kinda long. it's like reading a text book. at some point, you HAVE to stop reading because your brain stops retaining information. haha
I don't think I could read it more than 30 minutes at a time.
and that's a good thing because it covers everything in more detail and understanding than any other book on mixing I have ever read.

Everyone I've asked recommended 'Modern Recording Techniques', it's a good book, but again, it doesn't deal with the Hard Rock/Thrash genres and is more pop oriented. Most commercial books I've read go down that road.

 

[jimwilbourne]

Everyone I've asked recommended 'Modern Recording Techniques', it's a good book, but again, it doesn't deal with the Hard Rock/Thrash genres and is more pop oriented. Most commercial books I've read go down that road.

Try Mixing Audio.
I record various types of Metal/Hardcore/Screamo mostly.

The book is very all inclusive but mostly deals with Rock oriented genres.
I think this book definitely helped beyond words. It focuses more on the HOW everything works, WHY it works & WHEN you do & don't want to use certain techniques, rather than baby feeding you methods genre by genre.

I was always troubled that I couldn't find a book that dealt directly with my genre, but I've found that between "Mixing Audio" and extensive critical listening of every album I listen to, I've learned ALOT about how to go about mixing any rock based genre. they all work by the same principles.
reading this book definitely opened my eyes and trained my ears.

And this forum definitely helped fill in the gaps.

 

[Dalinkwent48@aim.com]

Everyone I've asked recommended 'Modern Recording Techniques', it's a good book, but again, it doesn't deal with the Hard Rock/Thrash genres and is more pop oriented. Most commercial books I've read go down that road.

Modern recording techniques is a great book. You can read it and still apply alot of the things in that book to any genre and it will help improve your skills alot. I def say pick it up and read it.