Mixing live sound for the first time, tips please

[Put]

Hi there,

Long time no see, I've been out of the game a little but recently I've got offered a job at a bar as house-live-soundguy.
It would be for 2 days a week.

I told them that I had never done live-sound but they were glad to have someone form the house rather than hiring people at high costs everytime.
So I gave 'em "I'd like to try".

So my question to you guys is if you could give me some pointers.


It's a recently small bar so I guess most of the bands won't need to me mic'ed.
Perhaps only the kick, vocals and maybe the toms/snare?

I'm a total newbie when it comes to livesound so I could use some Golden Knowledge!

Tnx in advance.
(feels good reading here again after such a long time of no inspiration, cheers)

 

[pikachu69]

depends on how small the venue really is (capacity?) and how big the pa is to how much micing up should be done. What is the pa? (how many speakers/power rating/channel count etc)

Most people underestimate how much micing to do even in small venues.
At the least kick and snare, bass and gats and of course vocals usually but if you can answer m questions above I can answer any other questions you may have. There is a live sound thread in here somewhere too.

 

[fsgdjv]

Try to mic as much as you can, it will get you more control. And ask guitarists etc to play at a low volume so you can actually do something with the sound. It's hard to do monitor and FoH at the same time in the beginning, but with some practicing you'll get the hang of it. Just try different things and don't be afraid.

 

[Put]

Thanks for the replies.

The bar cap. is about 150. max 200 I guess.
I have no idea what kind of hardware they have since they are gonna buy themselves some stuff.

Perhaps I can have a say in what to buy.

From memory I believe they have 2 -4 speakers.

But, you guys are PRO micing even when it comes to a small venue.

Edit*

Here you can see the bar a bit. how deep it goes.
The broadness of the bar is aprox double what you see in the picture.
The pooltables in the back will be coverd with plates and pushed back to function as a stage.

http://api.ning.com/files/6EccsPHY6c2*MmJEQPzOjMHIsoh5ONnNZgAKcBdE1EVHMDwDp7qh2C8sFK4og2t8x5L3-WTRNxvwnwYNGWtExA__/Foto0328.jpg

 

[if6was9]

I agree with what the guys here have said, mic everything you can up. I'd rather have it and not use it than be wishing I'd had something miced. Also by micing cabs you can give them back to them in the monitors even if you don't use them out front.

Couple of tips- roll the low end off everything except bass, kick, floor tom and possibly some keys/backing tracks depending on the material. High pass filter is your friend.

Set the volume of the amps so that they are just about too low under the live drums out front, that way you can give them a little back in the monitors and you have some tone shaping room out front. If the amps are too loud on stage you are screwed. Don't be a pushover in this regard, alot of bands have their amps far too loud and need to be told to turn down. You don't have to be a dick about it but be firm.

Cut some midrange on your guitars to make room for vocals. They won't sound as aggressve and edgy but the mix will sound much better overall if you sculpt some room for the vocals.

Gate your drums- they will sound punchier and the cymbal bleed (which will become the bane of your existance!) will be greatly reduced. BUT some genres will require you to lower the thresholds to allow for quieter sections and ghost notes.

Also, wear earplugs- live sound WILL hurt your hearing if you don't. I've been pretty careful but still notice I've suffered some damage over the years.

Help the bands arrange themselves onstage in a sensible manner. Musicians sometimes have crazy notions about stage setups that often involve firing their amps at insane volumes at their ankles and calves. Help them with the set up so that it helps everyone, better sound on stage and a better sound out front.

 

[Put]

Wow thanks for the response(s)!

That really helps.
Believe it or not but I actually hear new things!

This is great.
Thanks

 

[Sloan]

make sure everything is turned down, in a small place like that you will be fighting stage volume from the band and the monitors all night. DI as much as possible (bass/keys/axefx/etc..).

 

[Manicompression]

I do sound occasionally for a club around here with a few different rooms. One looks identical to what your going to be working. I would take a less is more attitude with the micing if the room is not full, So start with kick, snare, guitar amps, bass di, and vocals. The only time ive ever found more mics in this size room to be usefull is when it was full capacity.
As per your approach, remember you are not recording an album, move quick and confident. Put the mics on the source as close as possible in sensible spots, bleed is the enemy. I completely agree with what was stated above regarding filters and gates being your friends, even a shitty behringer multi channel comp / gate can really help the cause.
Per actually mixing, when your doing your line check with the talent, sweep the mids and identify the crap and scoop it out. Line 6 spider combos and Marshall mg's are common amps sadly, dont be afraid to suck out the Hi eq, every amp and bass is different, just dont be afraid to cut. The only thing i almost always found usefull was removing 250 from the kick. Assigning vocals to a secondary bus and using them for a bit more is usually usefull and worth doing.
Biggest tip of all, dont stay behind the mixer once you think your dialed in, get up and listen to the bands as the audience actually hears them, its often night and day and will reveal needed tweaks. Good luck

 

[Put]

Really love the response guys.
good to see people sharing knowledge free of charge with strangers

Right now I feel like I'm just being thrown out there.
No experience, apart from recording/mixing, and no chance to practice really.
(does that even exist, practice mixing live sound without possibly ruining the evening)

What I do know is that, for instance metal in a place like this tends to be a undefinable wall of noise.
And I like to change the world.... change we can believe in........

But these replies boost my confidence quite a bit, thanks for that.

I'll read over these comments again and meditate on it

IN the meanwhile, anyone with any other things to say say them please!

 

[jENK]

I use to work at The Viper Room in L.A. and that venue's maximum capacity is only 250. I miked everything and it always sounded good (having a great sounding P.A. and room helped of course). The key is to have guitarists turn down to give you more control FOH. Most of the time you won't need the snare in the mix (especially with a hard hitting drummer) but mic it anyway and having a gated kick is essential. One of the biggest challenges in mixing live is getting the vocals over the band. During sound check or before the show tell the vocalist to sing as close to the mic as possible, and when the band begins playing, start working on the vocals first. At least 75% of people only care about the vocals so they should be your first priority. At least the audience still hears the stage sound of a drumkit or guitar cab if you don't have signal (especially in a small room), but with vocals nobody's going to hear the singer if the mic's not working or your struggling to get level. Also, run your gains lower than normal when line-checking as bands tend to hit harder when they actually start playing. Same with the faders and stereo buss. Headroom is extremely important so don't just try and make the mix loud straight away. Put a high pass filter on everything except kick, toms and bass. Of course there's so much more to it but I hope that helps. Good luck!

 

[Ronny]

I always found that the sound on Thursday night will be totally different from the sound on Friday night without changing a thing. Heat, number of people, humidity all affect the sound.

 

[arv_foh]

2-4 speakers? I'd just put vocals and maybe kick in there but roll off the low end so you don't eat up the headroom for the vocals.. with no subs (unless it's say a 2 sub 2 top box setup, this is hard to know what to tell you without knowing the rig) you're not gonna get any thump either way so no reason to eat up that headroom. You should mic up everything though and add what you need.

An easy test you can do to see if the PA is loud enough is to go in and play music from an iPod loudly (around the same volume a band would be playing) and hook up a vocal mic and see if you can clearly hear the vocals over the music (without overloading the system and clipping the amps). if you can't the rig is too small for the room.

As already mentioned vocals are priority.. if the PA isn't loud enough to get the vocals above the band you are going to have an uphill battle before you even plug anything in. Ask the band to respect your authoritah and turn down their amps if you can't get the vocals loud enough.

Normally when I do a bar gig my input list looks something like this..

K
SN
RACK TOM
FLOOR TOM
BASS
DI (for key/tracks/whatever)
GTR
GTR
SR VOX
CENTER VOX
SL VOX

Start with the vocals and amplify other instruments til it sounds good. Don't eat up the headroom of the PA with anything that is unnecessary.

I find it easier to mix in small clubs using a master buss compressor and knocking of 2-6db to keep those drum transients from clipping the amps.

If the bar is gonna buy stuff for you here's a basic, minimal list of what you need to effectively do your job:
FOH
Mixing console (12 channel will work, 16 channel is more ideal) Allen & Heath Mixwizard is a compact, quality desk
4 channel compressor (with 4 insert cables)
4 channel gate (with 4 insert cables)
31 band stereo EQ for mains

obviously a PA (+amps if unpowered) but it sounds like they already have one

Monitors
Ideal stage setup is with 4 wedges (SR, C, SL, DRUM) but a lot of smaller places get away with 2 mixes (2 or 3 wedges downstage on the same mix and 1 wedge for the drummer)
31 band EQ for each monitor mix

Mics, stands (at least 4 tall boom and 4 short boom), cables if the club doesn't already have them.

Hope this helps.

 

[Put]

So 2 years and quite some gigs later I have grown in skill and confidence, in part thanks to you guys.
The bar I frequently work has been around for a long time and a lot of people tell me the sound for live music has become much better.

Thank you.

I just re-read the replies on here and I read stuff I didn't initially take in but is very useful.

Cutting Mids on guitars is something I would never do fi. But OFF COURSE this is going to give room for those vocals you are always in a clinch with! *DUHH*

Cheers

 

[Manicompression]

Good to hear buddy. Glad you were able to spin some of the advice here into practice. I haven't actually run sound proper since probably around the time of this thread. I dont miss it much but seeing this bumped reminded me of how fun it could be when I had decent talent to work with.

 

[bryan_kilco]

Get an iPad and the bluetooth hookup for wireless mixing! Haha!

We've played a club near Philly a few times where the soundguy had this setup and it was fucking awesome! Still not sure exactly how this all works, but it amazed the hell out of me and I guess being able to walk around the room with your board is probably a good thing.