Nice Opeth review!

[GabrielKnight]

Hi Jim and happy new year!

I was searching the Internet for Opeth reviews and found yours here. All I can say is this is one of the best reviews of Opeth's discography I've read! Not only it's very professionally written and the most complete, I agree with you pretty much on all accounts! The first 2 Opeth albums are greatly underrated, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who truly appreciates them.

I'm sure you've had a chance to hear Deliverance and Damnation. I'm very curious on your opinion on these 2 albums. Are you planning to add them to your review?

Also, just a reminder - Opeth is coming to the US for a tour in Jan/Feb, check the dates on their site.

-GK

 

[Jim LotFP]

... honestly I'm really down on Deliverance and Damnation.

Deliverance seemed too much like a retread of Blackwater Park. My thoughts on BWP were sincere, but as time went on there were only a few songs I kept returning to... maybe it's the 'old time fan upset that all the new fans think THIS is the best album since they discovered Opeth with instead of one of the old ones', maybe not, but I wouldn't ever ever call it a bad album. Deliverance didn't expand on it at all, and one of the reasons I did lose my shit over Opeth was how new and fresh they were in metal, and how they kept moving on and mutating their sound a little bit. Deliverance seemed to be where that train completely stopped... There were new bands that had taken the 'OHMYGOD HOW DID THEY THINK OF THAT!!!' flag and were running with it and with this album, Opeth were giving us Morbid Angel tributes and predictable song formats...

Damnation was a disaster in my eyes... they'd been expressing the idea to do an all clean album since the Morningrise days, but... what they came up with were not songs of the usual depth and windiness of Opeth songs, but a bunch of the more compact 'this is the light song' things that have been on the last few albums. Thinking about the 'soft' songs on the early albums, all that was different were the vocals. To Bid You Farewell was not the gimmick song in the middle to break the pace, you know? And what is the one lame thing a veteran band can ever do on tour? Focus too much on new material. So what do they do? The Damnation tour with split sets! Light/Heavy! Making their own stuff a freakshow instead of part of the greater whole... 'this isn't a REAL album, it's something different that needs to be separated' is the message that sends. I didn't like it, I found it too samey from beginning to end (mind you I don't own a copy, just had a listen or two from a friend's copy and then watched the DVD set)... it was a 'nice' album, but again it was looking to the past for inspiration instead of melding influences to become its own legend as on earlier Opeth albums.

Don't get me started on the audacity of the band to release a DVD with NOTHING from the first four albums on it.

They need to remove their lips from Steven Wilson's ass ASAP (I tried to like Porcupine Tree but I can't...), they need to have other members contribute material again, even if it sucks ass it'll break the 'standard Opeth mode' they've been in for the past three years, and they need to sit down, relax, and let material age in the rehearsal room as a band because things seemed to be a hell of a lot better when they did.

I wonder if the fact that they are making money now has anything to do with how they're marching out albums these days. If you're not making any money, who cares how long it takes for the album to come out, you know? But if it's your paycheck, you're on deadline... and then every cent counts as well if you're looking at it as income, so no extra money going out the door to the old label for material on your live DVD, right? (and what possible other explanation is there for that, since every other two bit piddly band can present live albums that have things from their entire careers, hmmm?)

I won't say there aren't very good to excellent moments on the Opeth albums I don't like as a whole, but I wonder if the band honestly believes they're hitting home runs, or if they know they're rushing some things and are just glad that 'nobody seems to notice' because sales keep going up.

 

[jageorge72]

I haven't even had the desire to purchase Damnation. It's been on my "to buy" list forever, and just keeps getting bumped down. Might as well scratch it.

BTW......... what's the status of that Anniversary issue? .....and the next one, and the one after that? :Spin:

 

[Occam's Razor]

I agree with your opinion about their relationship with Steve Wilson. I could never understand what's so great about his Pink Floyd Tribute band - I saw them together with Dream Theater some years ago and I nearly fell asleep - This only happened to me once before at a Sentenced-gig...

Perhaps it's the same thing as with Anathema and their admiration for Radiohead. Anathema are cool but Thom Yorke is an idiot from what I've read in several interviews with him.

Well then...where's the next issue, I've run short of reading material here!

 

[GabrielKnight]

... honestly I'm really down on Deliverance and Damnation.

Wow, I was kinda expecting a not-so-good review, but not quite this bad! I think I'm seeing your point about Delieverance not being a very innovative album. I'd say it's a decent album on its own, but by Opeth's standards it's not. It took me quite a few spins to get into the album, on first listen I was shocked how "dry" it was. Damnation... well, let's just say I never completely got into it. I don't know, it just sounds unfinished to me. Which makes sense, if you read the session notes on Opeth's site, the recording of Delieverance/Damnation was nothing short of a disaster! But it was a disaster of his own making. He's been a lazy bastard (which he openly admits LOL). I mean, come on, what was he thinking showing up in the studio to record 2 albums, when he only had 2 or 3 songs written?

Don't get me started on the audacity of the band to release a DVD with NOTHING from the first four albums on it.

I beleive these were the copyright issues, as they've changed labels...

They need to remove their lips from Steven Wilson's ass ASAP (I tried to like Porcupine Tree but I can't...), they need to have other members contribute material again, even if it sucks ass it'll break the 'standard Opeth mode' they've been in for the past three years, and they need to sit down, relax, and let material age in the rehearsal room as a band because things seemed to be a hell of a lot better when they did.

I do like Porcupine Tree, though. Took me a while to get into them, and find them kind of a depressing listen, but they are good. And when they opened for Opeth's Damnation tour last year, I actually liked their set better then Opeth's. You are right, Mike needs to get his shit together, and acutally have the music written before he goes to the studio. It's a shame to see a talent going to waste because the guy is just damn lazy!

-GK

 

[Jim LotFP]

BTW......... what's the status of that Anniversary issue? .....and the next one, and the one after that? :Spin:

Have had massive problems with the printers so sent the thing back to the people I usually use (was trying to get a deal since this issue is a lot thicker).

Issue after that should come together around end of this month as the publicity machines for the new releases in 2004 haven't really gotten going yet so aside from finally bugging Dan Swanö for that Crimson II interview now that I have Sundays off again, I have nobody to talk to. People like Hematovore and Lilitu are shoe-ins for talks once they have official release dates for their new albums but doing interviews when there's no new material out because I have a CDr is a bad idea.

 

[GabrielKnight]

Have had massive problems with the printers so sent the thing back to the people I usually use (was trying to get a deal since this issue is a lot thicker).

I think I've read in your FAQ that you don't want LotFP to be a webzine... but why not? Having a printed publication must be a major hassle. Why not have the magazine on the web? This way you get the worldwide audience, and no troubles of dealing with having it printed, distributed, and stuff like that. Besides, at this day and age I think printed magazines are quickly becoming thing of the past... or am I wrong?

-GK

 

[ruinandmisery]

Speaking of Opeth. We are trying to get on the opening slot again but the booking agent is not wanting any bands on the bill. Seems we will have to wait it out until the last minute again.

Jason
www.lilitu.ws

 

[Jim LotFP]

I think I've read in your FAQ that you don't want LotFP to be a webzine... but why not? Having a printed publication must be a major hassle. Why not have the magazine on the web? This way you get the worldwide audience, and no troubles of dealing with having it printed, distributed, and stuff like that. Besides, at this day and age I think printed magazines are quickly becoming thing of the past... or am I wrong?

Yes, it is a pain in the ass with the printing, distribution, etc.

But it's real.

If something's just on the web, it isn't 'real', and putting a large amount of work into something that can just disappear because someone didn't pay a bill or hit the wrong buttong seems... ick.

Then again I've never paid for internet access and refuse to ever get a cell phone so I'm keeping myself out of the technology loop as much as possible.

 

[arnavut]

Your write up is the most common way of reviewing an album and probably about 99 % of writers look at it this way. Even though they are critisizing "the" album, their ideas formed as a result of uncontrollable comparison to the artist's old and superior work. So, this creates a dissappointment on the writer and he starts putting the album down.

However, if you can look at the album quality free of comparison of their early work, you will see that the album is great.

Even though Opeth members are unbelievable artists, they are still human. Their performance has to fluctuate. They cannot keep on getting better and better: that would be godly. It will never happen.

I recommend listenning those albums from a perspective of an album is released by an unpromisin band or a band that you have never heard of before.

 

[Jim LotFP]

However, if you can look at the album quality free of comparison of their early work, you will see that the album is great.

By what standard? if it's the album I'd least want to listen to by the band what's the point in saying it's great? Albums don't exist in a vacuum...

If I want to hear a pretty good Opeth album that doesn't come close to earlier efforts I'll listen to MAYH or Still Life.

If I want to hear an Opeth album on autopilot I'll listen to Deliverance. A different logo on the cover wouldn't have made that album suddenly spectacular.

I recommend listenning those albums from a perspective of an album is released by an unpromisin band or a band that you have never heard of before.

I didn't like Farmakon either.

 

[PoS]

I wonder if the fact that they are making money now has anything to do with how they're marching out albums these days. If you're not making any money, who cares how long it takes for the album to come out, you know? But if it's your paycheck, you're on deadline

wow, I'd never actually thought of it quite that way before, but I'll have to admit that there is the posibility of some turth behind the reasoning at least, though I would dissagree with you that they are 'marching out albums these days'. if there is any difference between the rate which they're coming out now and they rate they were, the difference is scarcely imperceptible. then again we're only talking about 7 albums here, so it's kinda hard to judge.

sure D1 and D2 may have come out a little soon after BWP compared to previous releases, just going from memory anyway, but you'll have to rememeber that D1 and D2 were a singular, conscious effort on mike's behalf. sure they were released separately but they were recorded at the same time, albeit in different studios and I believe you'll find it was mikael's original intent was to release a double CD with the songs fully interspersed soft and heavy, which then changed to a double CD yin-yang like. I regret that they followed their 'managements recommendation', which is the going story at least, to release the albums seperately so they could be toured individually, but that's just the way the cookie crumbled.

All that said though, I'll be really put out if they don't sit on the upcomming album. The problem is that with all the apparent 'good publicity' the albums have been receiving with a few notable exceptions such as yourself jim, I'm sure in most fans hearts opeth's most recent efforts are a dissapointment. this is to to say they're bad by any stretch of the imagination, just that they're certainly not an improvement on their previous efforts. Not to be overly harsh on D2 but in most cases it certainly wasn't what anyone was expecting. I wouldn't however say that in this case it's an issue of mikael removing his tongue out of steve's arse, so much as it is that this was the 'mikaels love for the mellontron' issue/album. as always it's mikael's right to do whatever the hell he wishes, and I've always admired him for that. he's always pretty much said if you don't like the music you can basically fuck off, and that he writes the music for himself. only problem is that if albums or at least softer songs were to continue in the D2 vein, I think he'll find himself doing just that. in reality I don't think we have anything to worry about however, as I get the distinct impression that this was just a bit of experimentation on his behalf. getting back to the upcomming album however, I think mike and that band know that D1 and D2 weren't quite as well accepted as some people might think, and that if they sit around whille maturing material for a new album instead of pumping something out, they might lose a large part of their fan base. while we know this is supposedly quite contrary to mikael's philosophy, I'm beginning to fear this may just be the case. I guess you've always got to consider the labels potential effect on the schedule of releases as well, just like with what happened with D1/D2, the same could happen with them pushing the band to get another album out the door. then again, I guess that in someways with all the touring and money they're making, for the label at least, that they might be allowed a little more leighweight when it comes to recording/producing the new album. I mean, when ever they pester mikael he could always just say "I haven't come up with any decent new material yet" until he's comfortable with what he's got. then again, this little tidbit of info from a recent interview with peter lindgren ought to inpire at least little bit of confidence in opeth's fan base.

This time when we record we're going to be fully prepared

and considering the nightmare that was the last studio experience, I really think they may just hold to it. like I said though, I really do wish they'd sit on the upcomming album for as long as possible, which would be going against the trend for them, with the possible exception of orchid. I'm willing to wait as long as necessary. :gring: I mean we knowthat mike has it in him, and I've always been keen to see what he can produce when he finally decides to spend some time with the material before heading to the studio with it.... or in mikes case, going to the studio then coming up with the material.

... and then every cent counts as well if you're looking at it as income, so no extra money going out the door to the old label for material on your live DVD, right? (and what possible other explanation is there for that, since every other two bit piddly band can present live albums that have things from their entire careers, hmmm?)

I'm sorry jim, but I didn't quite understand what you were trying to get at with the "money out the door comment". I don't suppose you'd care to clarify that one for me?

They need to remove their lips from Steven Wilson's ass ASAP (I tried to like Porcupine Tree but I can't...)

as for the SW issue however, it's certainly not anyone's place but mike's and the bands to decide when to give steve the boot for good as far as production goes, as again, iit's ultimately his call and dependant on what he wants to do with the album, but in the particular case of what mike says he's going for with the new album, I think now is the time to put steve asidee, for a little while at least.

as mike has mentioned that he's going for something along the lines of a "tr00ly br00tal black metal' album, and of course while all plans are subject to change, I would think that SW is the last person you'd want to be handling such a project. no discredit to steve intended, but while it would appear that he's sampled some of the aspects of the metal genre finally, I doubt he knows the first thing about 'tr00' (and I use the term lightly) black metal. even worse is considering that production is such a critical and defining aspect of the black metal genre, if you were to handle the reigns over to someone who has no idea what he's looking at, you have the recipe for disaster right there. all that said though, the potential for SW's influence in a black metal album to create some truly new and brilliant hybrid genre, I mean god knows opeth have done it before, is astounding.

I guess what I'm saying is that with SW at the reigns, the new album is likely to either totally rock or totally suck, and that with the more time they take to digest what they come up with post production, the more likely it is to rock then to suck.

and in case I didn't mention it yet, wow, the opeth discussion is better here then it is in the opeth forum!

PoS *Who is happy she got to use the phrase 'SW' so many times in a single sentence. *

 

[Jim LotFP]

wow, I'd never actually thought of it quite that way before, but I'll have to admit that there is the posibility of some turth behind the reasoning at least, though I would dissagree with you that they are 'marching out albums these days'. if there is any difference between the rate which they're coming out now and they rate they were, the difference is scarcely imperceptible. then again we're only talking about 7 albums here, so it's kinda hard to judge.

The first two albums took over five or so years to write. Material that had been gone over, again and again, during frequent rehearsals. Some of the stuff on Morningrise could have just as easily been on Orchid. Then two years for MAYH. Then one year for Still Life, year and a half for BWP, then two albums done in two years while there was heavy touring done...

I think mike and that band know that D1 and D2 weren't quite as well accepted as some people might think, and that if they sit around whille maturing material for a new album instead of pumping something out, they might lose a large part of their fan base.

Opeth already has 'the name'. So they could take ten friggin years, if they make something worth hearing, the audience will come.

I'm sorry jim, but I didn't quite understand what you were trying to get at with the "money out the door comment". I don't suppose you'd care to clarify that one for me?

The only reason there wasn't any older material on the DVD was because of who owned the rights to the songs... publishing money, basically. I really doubt Candlelight and Peaceville outright refused (or could refuse) to let the bands release that material on a live album, but evidently the band decided dividing up the money that way wasn't something they wanted to do. So they gave us a substandard product for financial considerations. And for someone who doesn't know anything about this, it looks as if the band is very much saying the older material isn't important enough to be included on anything Opeth these days.

as mike has mentioned that he's going for something along the lines of a "tr00ly br00tal black metal' album

You have no idea how scared I am of this. Last thing I want to hear is Mikael exploring Immortal or Darkthrone fanboyisms. We'll see if he means something different.

 

[Demoke]

Wow! This felt like a literal rush of fresh air. I agree with PoS in that here you can find much better discussion on Opeth than on the Opeth board itself. I have just first time got into this board because I love Opeth music and I've read some of the best (if not the best) CD reviews and interviews to Mikael. Jim, I bow my head towards you in admiration!

Having said this, I will express my total agreement as far as my disappointment, especially with D2, is concerned because it's not in itself the kind of thing I was expecting at all. When thinking of "mellow," referred to Opeth, songs like To Bid You Farewell, Face of Melinda or Credence, come to my mind. Damnation couldn't be farther away from that, so I feel in a way "betrayed" by the band.

As far as D1 is concerned, both music and lyrics fail to transmit the thrill and the feelings that previous releases conveyed (Orchid and Morningrise esp for music; MAYH and Still Life esp for lyrics) and, yes, it's disappointing. That's not to say I don't like a song like "Deliverance," but, certainly, a lot of the depth, dramatism and, to put it in a nutshell, "goose bumps," are gone from Blackwater Park onwards.

I could go on talking but it's already been said above, even in a better way than I could.

 

[PoS]

The first two albums took over five or so years to write. Material that had been gone over, again and again, during frequent rehearsals.

well of course it took 5 years to 'write'! they were the debut albums! =P in many ways you would expact that to be the case with most bands. they have material which they've been working on for a long time. one assumes they would have released it earlier if they were signed earlier, but sometimes it's just a matter of time before they get signed regardless of whether the material is good or not. and of course in that time they would have refined what they first did when the put pen to paper. I doubt mikael sat down and said "ok, I'm going to get signed to a lable in 3/4/5 years, I'll start writing material now."

Some of the stuff on Morningrise could have just as easily been on Orchid.

mikeal has pointed this out before too. obviously after going so long without a lable, they would have generated excess material for a single album, which is why some of the original material was still appearing as far into their discograpy as MAYH.

Then two years for MAYH. Then one year for Still Life, year and a half for BWP, then two albums done in two years while there was heavy touring done...

I didn't know about this though, sorry. from the dates I got the impression that still life and BWP were each two years apart from their respective predecessors, which to my knowledge would be about the industry standard? ie:two years between releases. the reason for d1 and d2 has already been explained. I would agree with you however that yes holding onto the original material for such a long time is waaay for the better, and the first 2 albums are brilliant because of it. but that's just not the way the industry works, is it?

of late I think you are right in that it's fair to say that they've been releasing material a little to close together, not much though, but I think it's more important to establish that mike would benifit from spending more time with any material he writes before going into the studio. as he's pointed out often he'll start writing material a couple of weeks before going into the studio (obviosuly he's picked up idea's here and there on the road in the mean time), and then spend a week or two in the studio, not doing much by the way of rehearsals.

obviously however other things have been occupying his time, not that I'm saying anything against him.

if they have to take 2-3 years between albums in order to actually give it a little time to breath, say 6 months from when he starts writing, that would be fine by me!

Opeth already has 'the name'. So they could take ten friggin years, if they make something worth hearing, the audience will come.

I would actually say that opeth having 'the name' is the reason they must produce (though not quite as quickly as they have been recently). the first 2-4 albums were polished cos they weren't under as much pressure from the label to produce material, as in there's no point a band churning out material at a rapid rate until they've established a name for themselves as far as the labels are concerned, cos they won't push many units of individual releases. but while they're hot, the label will want them to produce as much material/merchandise as possible to increase there profit margin, no?

the fans don't mind waiting. but the labels do.

The only reason there wasn't any older material on the DVD was because of who owned the rights to the songs... publishing money, basically. I really doubt Candlelight and Peaceville outright refused (or could refuse) to let the bands release that material on a live album, but evidently the band decided dividing up the money that way wasn't something they wanted to do. So they gave us a substandard product for financial considerations. And for someone who doesn't know anything about this, it looks as if the band is very much saying the older material isn't important enough to be included on anything Opeth these days.

ah, thanks for that, now I'm with ya. ^_^ so theoretically opeth and their current label could have bought the rights to record older songs for the dvd. that's the only part that confused me. I knew that they didn't have the rights, but assumed they could not acquire them where it was more of a case that they would not acquire them. one wonders how it works that they can perform the material live though? I assume it has something to do with them having the right to perform their old songs but not use them in the creation of further merchandise, like the DVD for example.

You have no idea how scared I am of this. Last thing I want to hear is Mikael exploring Immortal or Darkthrone fanboyisms. We'll see if he means something different.

I wouldn't worry about this too much, I'm guessing he means something quite different to what he originally first stated... just like with Damnation, what was going to be the "soft opeth" album.

PoS

P.S. say hi to sanna for me! *muah!*

 

[GabrielKnight]

This is indeed an interesting discussion!

The only reason there wasn't any older material on the DVD was because of who owned the rights to the songs... publishing money, basically. I really doubt Candlelight and Peaceville outright refused (or could refuse) to let the bands release that material on a live album, but evidently the band decided dividing up the money that way wasn't something they wanted to do. So they gave us a substandard product for financial considerations. And for someone who doesn't know anything about this, it looks as if the band is very much saying the older material isn't important enough to be included on anything Opeth these days.

ah, thanks for that, now I'm with ya. ^_^ so theoretically opeth and their current label could have bought the rights to record older songs for the dvd. that's the only part that confused me. I knew that they didn't have the rights, but assumed they could not acquire them where it was more of a case that they would not acquire them. one wonders how it works that they can perform the material live though? I assume it has something to do with them having the right to perform their old songs but not use them in the creation of further merchandise, like the DVD for example.

Here's a link to the interview where Peter answers the question why the older material wasn't included on the DVD: http://www.live4metal.com/opeth2.htm
Basically, it sounds like they didn't want to go through the trouble of dealing with the old record label.

You have no idea how scared I am of this. Last thing I want to hear is Mikael exploring Immortal or Darkthrone fanboyisms. We'll see if he means something different.

I wouldn't worry about this too much, I'm guessing he means something quite different to what he originally first stated... just like with Damnation, what was going to be the "soft opeth" album.

I don't see the reason to be scared, why would you be? Knowing Mikael, one would think he'll come up with something original, as he always does.

BTW, he mentioned at the concert that they will be taking a long break before the next album, a year or so. And it's been announced that Steve Wilson will be producing it, for better or for worse.

-GK

 

[PoS]

I don't see the reason to be scared, why would you be? Knowing Mikael, one would think he'll come up with something original, as he always does.

-GK

sorry about that. the first paragraph of the two you quoted above was actually me quoting jim. so in truth it was you quoting me quoting jim. I'm not too concerned with the prospects of whatever it is that the band churns out next, as long as they take their time with it. since this is looking to be the case, we can all heave a heavy sigh of relief. =)

I still have trouble believing that wilson could hand the production duties of a "black metal" album at this stage.. but I guess we shall see. besides if mike continues along with this train of thought, he will most likely bend the rules of the genre a bit to something that even steve can work with.

 

[Protected Witness]

I think Jim's reviews are good.

I think the Deliverance songs come across better live than they do on CD. I think it's an okay Opeth album. I think the production is fucking great (love those drums), but the rhythm guitar tone is a little too dry.

I think Damnation was pretty great. It was pretty much what I was expecting. I think it's weird how everyone was expecting an album full of "To Bid You Farewell," which I always thought was sorta cheesy...

I thought it was pretty dumb not to have any old stuff on the DVD, but still liked it. It was a good show. The documentary was neato.

I think it will be better to not have too many preconceived notions about this next record. Deliverance was touted as "the heaviest Opeth album yet" and had like a few riffs that were heavy, and then the rest was regular Opeth stuff. I think that let alot of people down. They should have said "it has some of our heaviest MOMENTS" or something to that effect...everyone is getting all jumpy about black metal this and black metal that...I'll believe it when I hear it. I'll probably like it either way, but it'll be better not to have too many ideas to cling on to and just approach it fresh, like the new Suffocation album...

I think this is the first Opeth discussion I've participated in in a very long time that didn't have "favorite opeth (fill in the blank)" in the title.