Once Upon a Nightwish: reviews and discussion

[Melisan]

I'm reading "Once Upon a Nightwish," and got to the part discussing The Split. I'd read that Finland's PM was asked about Tarja's firing, and sure enough, the book confirms it. However, the book's author commits journalistic fail by not say what PM Vanhanen said when he was asked which side he was on, Tarja's or Tuomas's.

I would figure a nation's leader has bigger things to worry about, and if he was smart he wouldn't take a side because there's no winning that one. But I am curious. Does anyone know what Vanhanen's response was?

I guess it's a testament to Nightwish's national significance. I mean, I don't think Barack Obama has even commented on Michael Jackson's death (which actually has a few people upset).

 

[C.]

^Actually, even though Obama has not made an official statement, he did write a letter to the Jackson family. So I guess this is kinda the same thing.

I'm going to rename the topic title and make this the official thread for discussion about the Once Upon a Nightwish book. There was some discussion about it in Off-Topic in the Books thread, but I think it deserves a thread of its own, don't you?

 

[Melisan]

No one else has read this? Come on folks, speak up if you have.

 

[C.]

I have, but I can't remember if the PM ever gave an official statement.

 

[St Enigma]

Of course there wasn't official statement, lol

He was asked on a side note about his thoughts of Tarja's sacking after the concert because he and a party of government officials attended the show. If my memory serves, he said it was quite surprising but there must be reasons and such is life and blablablanextquestionplease.

.

 

[Melisan]

Was anyone else surprised that Tuomas still lives with his parents, and once met a girl in Canada and brought her to Finland to stay with him and his folks for 3 months? Not very rock star, is he?

That road crew, though... holy cow. I'm amazed they didn't drive Tarja off.

 

[C.]

Yeah, the road crew stories got me laughing so hard. But then again, the footage from End of Innocence provided me with great visuals to go along with some of those stories.

Kiitos Enigma, for the info about the PM. Typical politician, never commits to one thing or another and makes statements out of both sides of their mouths.

 

[Melisan]

Ok, I finally finished it.

Man, when Tarja finally wises up, she may only divorce Marcelo. More likely she's gonna kill him. The author said flat out, the band didn't want to fire her, they wanted to fire Marcelo and Tarja had to go with him.

That said, Tuomas needs to man up. He couldn't fire Sami himself, couldn't fire Tarja to her face and couldn't put Cabuli in his place. I could not imagine someone like Lars or Nikki Sixx or Steve Harris tolerating that for a millisecond. Tuomas has allowed his band to be nearly destroyed a few times now because he wouldn't nip something in the bud.

Is it me, or did the author never say when the go decision was made to fire Tarja? He talked about when the subject first came up but kept getting distracted on tangents and never said when the decision was made.

Perhaps the scuttled US tours were for the best. If they toured here with one singer, then came back with another, people would be like, what happened? And Tuomas would have to rehash the whole sordid story all over again.

BTW, that tour rider in the back of the book is sick. Just an incredible amount of booze.

 

[C.]

^Yeah, I agree that Tuomas obviously has some communication problems, since he fired both Tarja and Sami "behind the scenes". Then again, from the way it sounded with Tarja, it seemed like there was really no other way. According to Marcelo's "open letter", he assumes that Tuomas got the idea to fire Tarja in the fall of '04, after they had a big argument with Tuomas supposedly saying how he was in love with Tarja and Marcelo saying that they were married, get used to it. I don't know how much I believe it, but he did point out that in interviews before that time, Tuomas would always say stuff like, "oh, Nightwish could never be Nightwish without Tarja" and how important she was to the group. Then after that date, all of his interviews say, "Nightwish is my band", etc. "The scenery of my soul" were the words that Marcelo used in his statement.

Again, I'm not sure how true this incident is, obviously none of us were there, but it does give an interesting angle to the timeline.

 

[Teleute]

These unsung lines listed at the end of the lyrics of Ever Dream truly make me think he *did* have a thing for her:

"All I ever craved were the two dreams I shared with you.
One I now have, will the other one ever dream remain.
For yours I truly wish to be."

He does seem to have an inability to assert himself and stand up for himself (which sadly I share), and in a business like that it can ruin everything, as we've almost seen happen. I hope he finds some strength in himself to be able to be more effective in dealing with people.

 

[labarum]

It was a really good read, but seemed over too quickly, I really wanted to hear some coverage of the new era/ Nettan's selection etc. Oh well. It gives a good overview of where they came from, so I was satisfied.

 

[Stingray11214]

I got it as soon as it was available in English in Europe. The book was a very good read.

I agree that Tuomas may have communication issues. Hence, that is why he has Marco and Ewo. Those two will tolerate no shit. Those guys are the "bad cops", while Tuomas is his Mouseketeer self.

As for Tuomas being in love with Tarja: I really don't buy it. Furthermore, I believe that Marcelo "loves" and "manages" Tarja in the physical sense......you know, a slap here, a punch there, to keep her in line. As a "country girl", she may be to meek to fight back. If you don't think Tarja is a battered spouse, I have a bridge to sell you.

I will go this far: I truly believe all went south because Tuomas caught Marcelo using Tarja as a slapping board, and Tarja begged Tuomas not to say anything. Hence, that "meeting" in the hotel room.

 

[C.]

I don't know so much about that, but then again, that's none of my business. As rabid as the Tarja fans are, I don't think Marcelo would leave a mark on her, because I'm pretty sure the entire Tarjaholic community would burn him at the stake if he even accidentally bumped into her.

 

[Taimi]

wow.... i don't really think that Marcelo hurt her, but i do think that she changed because of him...

Yes, i liked the book, answered several questions, really liked the pictures, too. It's nice to find a band like Nightwish, good music made by generally good people.

 

[EvoL84]

Interesting discussion here

@C , I think the idea of firing Tarja came from Tuomas or maybe from Ewo. In the book it is mentioned that they discussed about it and it was Tuomas, Ewo, and Marco since neither Jukka and Emppu were there. Personally I think it was Tuomas' idea.

I will go this far: I truly believe all went south because Tuomas caught Marcelo using Tarja as a slapping board, and Tarja begged Tuomas not to say anything. Hence, that "meeting" in the hotel room.

You must be kidding

I think Tarja found in Marcelo what she needed. Someone who truly supported and spent time with her when she was always left alone while the others partied and didn't really care of their lead singer. She looks as someone who needs an other person to support her.
Marcelo probably step on Nightwish feet . Especially because he and Tarja had no really interest in doing long tours which in the end where not exactly rewarding (economically) , and they were pretty tiring . Viewed in an other perspective one might say it could be a reasonable thought, especially considering how they "stretched themselves out" with this DPP crazy tour (I mean, in the end even Anette collapsed and casually she got her own personal staff) .
Surely Marcelo's ways weren't exactly easy for the band and the management, he didn't make life easy. Still I don't think he's this evil monster who manipulate her wife and beat her. C'mon!

The book is a nice reading, very interesting. Especially the first part. But but..it's kinda biased , and it does make Tuomas like "the saint" of the situation (a little bit) and Marcelo like the evil mafioso. No doubt some things are probably true, but they are put in a not neutral light.

I was a bit shocked and amused about that thing in the sauna, when Tarja found them partying and Tero's slapping someone else (uhm Tuomas maybe? ) ass . What the hell they were doing? Maybe Finns have some ehm weird habits *grins.

Yeah, I agree that Tuomas obviously has some communication problems, since he fired both Tarja and Sami "behind the scenes". Then again, from the way it sounded with Tarja, it seemed like there was really no other way. According to Marcelo's "open letter", he assumes that Tuomas got the idea to fire Tarja in the fall of '04, after they had a big argument with Tuomas supposedly saying how he was in love with Tarja and Marcelo saying that they were married, get used to it. I don't know how much I believe it, but he did point out that in interviews before that time, Tuomas would always say stuff like, "oh, Nightwish could never be Nightwish without Tarja" and how important she was to the group. Then after that date, all of his interviews say, "Nightwish is my band", etc. "The scenery of my soul" were the words that Marcelo used in his statement.

Again, I'm not sure how true this incident is, obviously none of us were there, but it does give an interesting angle to the timeline.

I don't know, to be honest, why people find it such an impossible scenario. I don't want to sound as a fangirl, I've always been pretty sceptical but , honestly, how many people have thought about it even before Marcelo's answers, reading the lyrics? I don't think it could have had something to do with the split, but I've always had the impression there was also something personal who ruined the relationship between Tarja and Tuomas. I mean, certain things Tuomas said (both towards Tarja and towards Marcelo) have made me think like that, and they also were the only one who didn't talk to each other at all.
I think it might be very well true (or partially true) and Tuomas digged his own grave not really denying it (he made a couple of statements but never denying it, always answering cheesy stuff like "there was an emotional relationship" bla bla) and saying certain things and writing certain DPP lyrics.
I doubt it was a publicity trick , Tarja has always refused to comment it further in the media. She has been asked about it a lot of time but she always answered "no comment".
Casually she even refuses to sing EverDream because it's "too personal" .
So, I doubt it was among the reasons of the split but it could have influenced the realtionship between Tuomas and Tarja and the comunication between them.

 

[C.]

I don't know, to be honest, why people find it such an impossible scenario. I don't want to sound as a fangirl, I've always been pretty sceptical but , honestly, how many people have thought about it even before Marcelo's answers, reading the lyrics? I don't think it could have had something to do with the split, but I've always had the impression there was also something personal who ruined the relationship between Tarja and Tuomas. I mean, certain things Tuomas said (both towards Tarja and towards Marcelo) have made me think like that, and they also were the only one who didn't talk to each other at all.
I think it might be very well true (or partially true) and Tuomas digged his own grave not really denying it (he made a couple of statements but never denying it, always answering cheesy stuff like "there was an emotional relationship" bla bla) and saying certain things and writing certain DPP lyrics.
I doubt it was a publicity trick , Tarja has always refused to comment it further in the media. She has been asked about it a lot of time but she always answered "no comment".
Casually she even refuses to sing EverDream because it's "too personal" .
So, I doubt it was among the reasons of the split but it could have influenced the realtionship between Tuomas and Tarja and the comunication between them.

It's not that I don't find it plausible, it's just that something like that is so deeply personal that it is really none of my business. I don't know any of the parties involved, so I cannot say for sure one way or the other. Could Tuomas have been in love with her? Sure. Could Marcelo have just said that as a way to point the finger at Tuomas? Maybe. Either way, who knows?

Like I said over in the book topic, the thing I liked most about the book is that by the time you were done reading it, no one was painted in the most perfect picture, no one was made to look like a saint or a sinner. Honestly, I get tired of the extreme viewpoints from either end, whether it is fierce defense of Tarja or of Tuomas. Being in a band is like a marriage, and like a marriage, when things come to an end, there is no one who is completely blameless. Both parties contributed to the breakup in their own way, whether it was things they did, things they could have done differently, or things that were never done at all. It's been long enough now since the split that I just don't see the point of taking sides anymore.

 

[Taimi]

We can hem and haw over what if's and what could have been's, but the fact remains is that Tarja was fired, Nightwish went on to search for a new vocalist, found what they were seeking in Anette Olzon, and the rest is history. I'm keeping a close eye on Nightwish, mostly because I have nothing better to do, and then the fact that they are one of my favorite bands of all time.

 

[C.]

^Well, in fairness to the older fans, it's a topic that's always going to be discussed and always going to be theorized over. I understand to a newer fan that the stuff that happened years ago seems like ancient history and not worth dwelling on, but for those of us who were fans at the time of the split, it still feels a lot like "unfinished business".

But, I do agree also that it's been long enough now to where I think whichever side one has taken on the matter, it's over and done, and to just enjoy whatever Tarja or Nightwish is doing in the present. If one or the other is not really your thing anymore, appreciate the old stuff for what it was.

 

[Taimi]

Once Upon A Nightwish gave me more of an understanding of what happened, I've only been a fan since October 2008, so it fills in the gaps of what i've read on the bands history.

 

[EvoL84]

It's not that I don't find it plausible, it's just that something like that is so deeply personal that it is really none of my business. I don't know any of the parties involved, so I cannot say for sure one way or the other. Could Tuomas have been in love with her? Sure. Could Marcelo have just said that as a way to point the finger at Tuomas? Maybe. Either way, who knows?
.

yeah of course, no-one could know it. Although everything has made quite public in this split thing. I'm not surprised that people would wonder about it.