Perception...

[Dushan S]

IMO it may be true that some Yogis can swallow poison and not be affected, just as faith healing works to some extent. The power of the mind can affect the body in noticable ways. But could a yogi (or a hypnotised person) walk off the edge of a cliff, believing it to be solid ground, like in Loony Toons and not fall to the bottom? The reality in their mind is then shattered by the reality of the physical world.

Yogi would probably give this answer to you: Body is part of the material world and even if the spirit is not, body has to obey its laws in most of cases. No matter how much you are aware that reality is just a dream, millions of years old genetic programs built into your body are hard to agree with you. Its very substance, growth, developement, and finaly, dissolvement is based on laws of material world. It is made under those condition so it is hard to make it to function without obeying same rules that have made it in the first place.

Most of the explanations are connected to idea that body has its own intelligence of sort, and its own genetic heritage. So even if spirit can be free, it is evident that very spiritual and very enlightened people were also sick and dying from disseases. Being aware that reality is not so real, does not makes you D.C. Comics Superhero character
Although, there are some things that people do are evidently hard to explain by physics and other laws.

I have most definitely had spiritual experiences, (or just one big spiritual experience ) but I would suggest that one does not have a spiritual experience of the physical realm (or 'reality' as it has been referred to here) (and as you seem to have been suggesting) but rather a spiritual experience of the spiritual realm.

I agree. it is also a language problem, because we do not have separate words in english language, so when I say reality, it changes meaning based on what I am trying to say. I could have used term "Maya" for our individual and collective concepts of reality.
But why do you think that spiritual realm is something different from material realm? (I do know that spiritual-material is one of the polarities a lot of people that were exposed to spiritual experiences have, and is partly dictated by reliigious heritage) Isn't it just the one and the same thing but let's say... Matter in different form, or energy? And being in spiritual realm is more level of awareness. I have never noticed that having deep experience denies material world. It is transcending it, material world is still there but it is experienced as part of the something bigger, something thin, like a picture on a box, but now I can see the content of the box too, while before that I was thinking that picture on the box WAS only existing thing. It is just that I cannot make dinstinciton between spiritual and non spiritual, material and non material, because it is just one thing in different forms for me. In last few posts, we were talking more about our concepts, about way we perceive things, so it is just a mind content. What you have just said sounds like different thing to me and is more about nature and substance of reality. It would be interesting if you could ellaborate about having "spiritual experience", cause there are different people assuming different things when they say this.

I remember about this Zen master that once, asked about what has changed after enlightement said:" Now when I eat, I eat, when I sleep I sleep..." or something like that. It is all the same as far material world goes (at least for me, I cannot help it but talk from my own experience and my own wievs) but quality of awareness changes, and as awareness changes, material world changes its form too in a way.

 

[proglodite]

Yogi would probably give this answer to you: Body is part of the material world and even if the spirit is not, body has to obey its laws in most of cases. No matter how much you are aware that reality is just a dream, millions of years old genetic programs built into your body are hard to agree with you. Its very substance, growth, developement, and finaly, dissolvement is based on laws of material world. It is made under those condition so it is hard to make it to function without obeying same rules that have made it in the first place.

Alternatively, the harder the physical task or abnormality, the stronger the mind/spirit of the yogi needs to be.

Although from that one could deduct that the greatest yogi in history was roadrunner. Meep Meep!

But why do you think that spiritual realm is something different from material realm? (I do know that spiritual-material is one of the polarities a lot of people that were exposed to spiritual experiences have, and is partly dictated by reliigious heritage) Isn't it just the one and the same thing but let's say... Matter in different form, or energy? And being in spiritual realm is more level of awareness. I have never noticed that having deep experience denies material world. It is transcending it, material world is still there but it is experienced as part of the something bigger, something thin, like a picture on a box, but now I can see the content of the box too, while before that I was thinking that picture on the box WAS only existing thing. It is just that I cannot make dinstinciton between spiritual and non spiritual, material and non material, because it is just one thing in different forms for me. In last few posts, we were talking more about our concepts, about way we perceive things, so it is just a mind content. What you have just said sounds like different thing to me and is more about nature and substance of reality. It would be interesting if you could ellaborate about having "spiritual experience", cause there are different people assuming different things when they say this.

I have been meaning to start a thread about this, but I wanted to finish my current reading on the matter first.
I would say that the spiritual relates to the mental (psychological) in the same way that the mental relates to the physical. As the physical (data) would be nothing to us without the mental to interpret it, so the mental (knowledge) is nothing without the spiritual to intrpret it.(wisdom). So yes, spiritual does interact with both physical and mental; 'transcends' is probably the best word to use.
IMO it is not just 'special' people who have spiritual 'experiences' but that everyone is subject to each of physical, mental and spiritual; just some people are much more aware of it than others.

 

[crimsonfloyd]

I didn't say that personal reality is less real than collective one. Actually, it is not that easy to differentiate between them, because they seem to flow one into other. Collective reality is something that spirit of the society has chosen as best solution for one period. People are "Normal" and are acting "Acceptable", "good", "productive" when they pretend their personal reality is very close or similar to collective reality.

Ok so when you say "collective reality" you are refering to your first definition, not your third. What I was thinking of by collective reality was a collection of all consciousness, including non-human consciousness- which would lead to a collective reality such transcendended society.

But if we're using your definition of collective reality, then yes I agree with your general critique. The "reality" society presents us with is like a painting, insofar that a painting reflects its subject but shall missrepresent, forget or ignore various aspects of the subject.