Perceptions of risk

Norsemaiden

barbarian
Dec 12, 2005
1,903
6
38
Britain
A scientist picks up a gun that he knows is empty. He tells you it only fires blanks and so the statistical chance of being harmed is zero. His collegues all concur. "There's as much statistical chance of dragons flying out of that gun as a bullet!".
He points it at your head. How do you personally feel about the risk that he is lying or mistaken about the gun being empty? Wouldn't you feel that risk was too much greater than zero for comfort?

The risk, of a mistake with a gun that is allegedly not loaded is greater than the risk of an actually non-loaded gun harming you.

Do you follow that reasoning?

So while the scientists are basically right in their assessment of danger from a non-loaded gun, you would also be right in being concerned of another risk: that the gun turned out to be loaded after all.

This is why I am angry with the people who say we have nothing to fear from the large hadron collider that is being started up tomorrow in Geneva. It won't properly get going immediately, that takes several weeks. The scientists hope that it will make black holes for them to study. But other well qualified scientists are seriously concerned that the alleged risk is not correctly assessed and that the black holes could destroy Earth or even recreate the big bang.

The perception of risk we should be considering is: the risk the scientists are wrong or misleading us about the true magnitude of risk.

The above perceived risk is the only one we can base our feelings about this on, unless we prefer to just have FAITH in the majority of "experts".
 
I have always found scientists to be of the most hazardous element. They always seem to loose control of everything. Be it examples like the gypsy moth catapiller, to various approved drugs that were later found to be extremely harmful. So, if a scientist pointed a "unloaded gun" at my head I would take it from them, put a bullet in it, aim for their groin and pull the trigger.
 
They also thought that the atom bomb would ignite the atompshere and destroy the Earth. That would have been awesome. You can't stop progress.

It's not that I disagree with your point, there certainly is a risk. But to me, risk is an important part of life. I don't particularly care about black holes, but I don't think progress should be halted for the sake of fears. It annoys me that things like stem cell research are being held back when they could potentially lead to the most amazing advancements in history.
 
Risk applies to damn near anything. That we perceive specific risks and not others, does not make them inherently riskier.
 
Sure, I think it's human nature to feel threatened by something like that. Personally, there is always that risk of being harmed in such a circumstance. However unlikely it may be, the fear associated with the knowledge of what the gun could do and has done to others will always make me hesistant of something such as that.
 
If a scientist held a supposedly unloaded gun to my head I'd most certainly shit myself. On the other hand, if a gun expert held a supposedly unloaded gun to my head I'd shit myself a lot less. But if another gun expert stood on the other side of the room and told me he didn't think the supposed expert holding the gun to my head knew what he was talking about, I'm back to shitting myself again.

I very much doubt the scientists are misleading us, but it is possible they are wrong to some degree. I agree with Mr Trendkill though, in order for progress to be made, risks must be taken. It's scary but exciting and interesting at the same time.
 
If a scientist held a supposedly unloaded gun to my head I'd most certainly shit myself. On the other hand, if a gun expert held a supposedly unloaded gun to my head I'd shit myself a lot less. But if another gun expert stood on the other side of the room and told me he didn't think the supposed expert holding the gun to my head knew what he was talking about, I'm back to shitting myself again.

I very much doubt the scientists are misleading us, but it is possible they are wrong to some degree. I agree with Mr Trendkill though, in order for progress to be made, risks must be taken. It's scary but exciting and interesting at the same time.

Progress is NOT being made though. The experiment is merely to satisfy scientists' curiosity over whether a thing called a Higgs Boson exists. They admit there is no intention of any practical applications to help humanity, and that if any emerge that is unintentional.
So it is really pointless science.
Also many things that are supposed to be "progress" are in fact making our lives worse - making us weaker, sicker and the world polluted and so on. And as they make more problems, they try to find more solutions with science (except with the LHC which isn't trying to help anything).

Spend $8 billion on sociobiology and we could find out many far more useful things. Yet these useful answers don't make money for corporations, while they scare people because they want to continue to live in a world that amounts to a tower of cards. One more card on the top = a little more "progress".

The CERN experiment is a risk forced on us all, just for nothing, or something to make the world even more screwed up. And when few object it gives a green light for more of this crap.
 
Progress is NOT being made though. The experiment is merely to satisfy scientists' curiosity over whether a thing called a Higgs Boson exists. They admit there is no intention of any practical applications to help humanity, and that if any emerge that is unintentional.
So it is really pointless science.
Also many things that are supposed to be "progress" are in fact making our lives worse - making us weaker, sicker and the world polluted and so on. And as they make more problems, they try to find more solutions with science (except with the LHC which isn't trying to help anything).

Spend $8 billion on sociobiology and we could find out many far more useful things. Yet these useful answers don't make money for corporations, while they scare people because they want to continue to live in a world that amounts to a tower of cards. One more card on the top = a little more "progress".

The CERN experiment is a risk forced on us all, just for nothing, or something to make the world even more screwed up. And when few object it gives a green light for more of this crap.

These experiments could turn science on its head. I don't personally care about scientific discovery, but I support their pursuit. The more we understand about the universe, the more power we have.

Those with Amish aspirations such as yourself (and I am not making fun, I too support asceticism), can live without any technology or science we choose. Nothing is being forced on us. You didn't pay for it, did you?
 
Engineering is practical, science is about discovering what makes the world tick. Many practical improvements have come about from an improvement in understanding that bore no immediately obvious ramifications.

What is the risk here btw? If we aren't to trust scientists on scientific risks, who do we trust?
I mean, me hitting these keys could, in some non scientific variety of irrationality, cause vortices in the flux of space time and kill us all. Obviously, science and common sense both tell me 'no, that's unlikely' but *still* both science and common sense could be wrong. Yet I persist in endangering the entire universe through my petty desires to babble shit on an internet forum!
 
I don't know, but they are trying to reproduce the big bang. I can fully understand the need to see if this can really be done.

...and how they financed it? This is big. It's in Switzerland, they might be paid partly by the EU.

CERN - European Organization for Nuclear Research

The LHC was built by the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN), and lies underneath the Franco-Swiss border near Geneva, Switzerland. It is funded by and built in collaboration with over eight thousand physicists from over eighty-five countries as well as hundreds of universities and laboratories. The LHC is operational and is presently in the process of being prepared for collisions. The first beams were circulated through the collider on 10 September 2008, and the first high-energy collisions are planned to take place after the LHC is officially unveiled on 21 October.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

http://press.web.cern.ch/press/Welcome.html
 
Progress is NOT being made though. The experiment is merely to satisfy scientists' curiosity over whether a thing called a Higgs Boson exists. They admit there is no intention of any practical applications to help humanity, and that if any emerge that is unintentional.
So it is really pointless science.
Also many things that are supposed to be "progress" are in fact making our lives worse - making us weaker, sicker and the world polluted and so on. And as they make more problems, they try to find more solutions with science (except with the LHC which isn't trying to help anything).

Spend $8 billion on sociobiology and we could find out many far more useful things. Yet these useful answers don't make money for corporations, while they scare people because they want to continue to live in a world that amounts to a tower of cards. One more card on the top = a little more "progress".

The CERN experiment is a risk forced on us all, just for nothing, or something to make the world even more screwed up. And when few object it gives a green light for more of this crap.

Are you really concerned about the risk, or just pissed off that so much money was spent on scientific research that doesn't interest you?
 
Are you really concerned about the risk, or just pissed off that so much money was spent on scientific research that doesn't interest you?

This article sums up exactly how I feel:

Could the Large Hadron Collider be our Biggest Mistake?
September 12, 2008

Can we trust scientists, given their track record - and what does scientific “progress” really mean?

On Sept 10, the large hadron collider (LHC), the most massive piece of machinery ever made, was switched on. The $8 billion machine, built by CERN marked a watershed. It is the first time in the history of mankind that a risk from an experiment has been mooted to be able to cause the end, not only of our planet, but of the universe itself (possibly recreating the big bang).

Now that the circulation beams have been established, the date for the particle collisions to start is some time around late October and, in 2009, the machine is set to reach its full speed “taking physics to a new frontier”.

The aims of the experiment do not include any practical advantages to us whatsoever as the experts fully admit. The scientists merely hope to find out if they can find the “Higgs boson” and add to their understanding of whether the universe is going to expand or contract and other matters of no consequence to anyone who isn’t desperately curious about such questions. There may be some useful spin-off benefits regarding cleaner nuclear energy, and other practical technological “advances”, but, if so they will be unintended.

The risk of any cataclysmic disaster is said to be as good as zero, if you take the word of the scientists of CERN, who are determined to proceed with the experiment. But what can the layman, with no great knowledge of physics or means to analyze what the risk may be, conclude? An intelligent layman always has the tool of logic at their disposal.

There are a number of scientists who feel that insufficient caution has been taken to eliminate a risk that the tiny black holes, that the LHC team would like to create, could grow and suck in the world, or there could be a replication of the explosion that spawned the universe. These scientists have been attempting to stop the experiment with legal challenges, which have failed mainly because of issues around the dates the challenges were issued, rather than a consideration of the argument. The main objector is Dr Otto Rössler.

It would take too much space to list the many qualifications of Professor Rössler, who currently lectures at the University of Tübingen on Theoretical Biochemistry, including Chaos Theory and Brain Theory. He was additionally made a Professor of Chemistry by Decree. He also travels to other universities worldwide lecturing in various disciplines: Mathematics; Nonlinear Studies; Chemical Engineering; Theoretical Physics and Complexity Research. He has had five books published. The latest in 1998 “The World as Interface”, is his introduction to a new field of physics that he founded.

I point out how distinguished Professor Rössler is, because CERN publicly dismisses its scientific critics as being “loonies” and as “the kind of people who report being kidnapped by aliens on a regular basis” - as I heard one spokesman scoff on a television news item. His ad hominem venom in misrepresenting scientists like Rössler, who he did not mention by name, was language that suggested this CERN representative was sufficiently biased to be considered untrustworthy.

It is unfortunate that the pleas for caution from Rössler and others are conflated in the minds of many with the rejoicing of Christians anticipating the fulfillment of Biblical prophesy as written in Revelations: God causing the world to be rolled up like a scroll. People are eager to dismiss all criticism of the LHC as being irrational raving of religious doom-mongers.

Science proceeds by a process of trial and error. It is part of discovering the new that the unknown is probed. Much of science has been a case of learning from errors and unexpected results. It is duplicitous of CERN to suggest that they are sure their experiments are risk free, since they simultaneously claim that they do not know what will happen.

CERN owns the “LHC safety group”, and what can one reasonably feel is the risk that CERN is not necessarily straight about the risk? Typically when an organization polices itself, it twists its findings to suit its own wishes. In deciding whether you personally consider it safe to allow scientists to conduct an experiment, you must bear in mind three factors:

a) the possibility of that there is an accidental or deliberate flaw in their risk assessment.

b) what the consequences may be of a worst case scenario.

c) what the benefits are of proceeding if all goes to plan.

In the case of the LHC, the risk mentioned in a) is higher by far than the risk that the scientists have declared, because it depends on entirely different criteria to the criteria you would consider if you could directly research the safety of the experiment: human folly and dishonesty.

The worst case scenario, (b) is as bad as it could possibly be, and the benefits (c) are highly questionable and have a high chance of even being threats at some point.

To simply claim that you have faith and trust in the scientists being correct shows an inability or unwillingness to consider factor a). We can’t be sure of the risk that the risk told to us by the scientist turns out to be wrong, and we should indeed consider that to be an order of risk far greater than zero. An unloaded gun has no chance of killing you, but you know to be careful just incase - and a cocky scientist holding it at your head is not going to put your mind at rest.

Did you know that if passenger airplanes had a 0.001 percent chance of crashing, they would not be allowed to fly? And yet all a plane crash risks is a few hundred lives at maximum. We are not all kidnapped and forced to fly on that plane.

An article in the New York Times gives warning about the lack of security regarding risk assessment in science. “Francesco Calogero, a nuclear physicist at the University of Rome and co-winner of the 1995 Nobel Peace Prize for his work with the Pugwash conferences on arms control , deplored a tendency among his colleagues to promulgate a “leave it to the experts” attitude.”

“One problem is that society has never agreed on a standard of what is safe in these surreal realms when the odds of disaster might be tiny but the stakes are cosmically high. In such situations, probability estimates are often no more than “informed betting odds,” said Martin Rees, a Cambridge University cosmologist, the astronomer royal and the author of ‘Our Final Hour.’ “
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/science/15risk.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Mr Rees remains content for the LHC to be considered safe enough however.

We must recall that when the atom bomb was first tested there were fears that it could set alight the atmosphere. This proved a prospect too dire for Adolph Hitler to agree to. Speer wrote in his memoirs: “Hitler was plainly not delighted with the possibility that the earth under his rule might be transformed into a glowing star”, yet the Americans went ahead with it. And it worked fine, and we have benefited so greatly haven’t we? Perhaps a spin-off bonus of the LHC could be finding a way to save the billions of poor people in the third world! That is the kind of “progress” that mankind longs for.

So many advances of technology and scientific knowledge have claimed to benefit mankind - and yet in reality they are killing us while making us dependent upon them like a junkie depends on his dealer. A very accurate metaphor. Advances in medicine have allowed the weakest to survive and gradually spread weakness and medical dependence throughout the population. Various forms of machinery have take men away from the graft of hard physical labor, and turned them into overweight consumers of mindless garbage objects and entertainment. Genetically modified food was also supposed to help us but it is likely to kill us, while making farmers dependent upon companies for their seeds. Pesticides were supposed to help us, but they poison us, and so on. And all the while we grow further away from our natural state.

Physicists are infamous for having a cavalier disregard for risk in their single-minded obsession with their projects and ambitions. They absorb themselves in their subject and have a tunnel vision, holding onto their project like a dog with a bone. To such a man, his focus is that his own life is short and that he wants to see the result of his research. He may well not care what he is jeopardizing in his determination to seize his chance. We know very well that corruption is not something to which scientists are immune, and that falsification of data, dog-eat-dog competition and other unscrupulous activities happen as much in science as elsewhere. People often tell lies that put us in danger to get us to trust them and accept what they say, from the second-hand car salesman, selling death-traps if he can get away with it, to politicians who send millions to war on lies, and who have been bought by corporations who gain permission to poison the land and population. And these companies also bribe scientists who assure us of the safety of drugs, GM food, chemicals in cosmetics and so on. We can expect there is a commercial interest in the outcome of the experiments at CERN.

Cynical manipulators have turned our natural curiosity and optimism about “progress” into a source of gold for themselves and, at the same time, a source of danger to the Earth and a weapon to weaken the human bond with nature. As we become more dependent upon technology and the artifices of modern life, our bond with nature is severed and we are easily made into slaves serving corporate powers.

The acquiescence of the public towards the LHC can only be seen as a green light for further experiments to go ahead, with who knows what consequences. This will not be the last time great risks are taken, maybe next time in order to right a previous mess that short-sighted “progress” has caused to the environment. Repeated meddling to try to cancel out the grave consequences of previous meddling, all the time with an increased sense of urgency and recklessness. What right has man to risk the diversity and beauty of life, so cut off from all of it that he would rather seek an elusive science-fiction fantasy than stop and appreciate what we have: flowers, trees, birds, love and family?

They search for “the meaning of life” and hope to find “why we are here” by conducting experiments that may doom the Earth, and cannot make humanity any happier. And yet the answers to these fundamental questions have always been in front of our noses. $8billion invested in sociobiology would enhance knowledge in these areas - and yet the answers scare many. They don’t want to know these truths and so they turn away and, with a mad sparkle in their eyes, tell us they believe the LHC will provide great answers, and maybe discoveries that even lead to time travel, etc. Ask the scientists what the statistical chance of any of THAT is! Why should improbable “nice” results be so much more credible than the idea that the outcome could be dismal in the extreme?

Earth is our one and only home and it’s time we appreciated it, instead of gambling all, no matter what the odds are either way, for pie in the sky.
http://stopbadscience.wordpress.com/
 
What terrible deeds has science done to us? Nuclear power, the atom bomb, I see these as generally positive things. What else is there that could be construed as negative?
 
"The aims of the experiment do not include any practical advantages to us whatsoever as the experts fully admit. The scientists merely hope to find out if they can find the “Higgs boson” and add to their understanding of whether the universe is going to expand or contract and other matters of no consequence to anyone who isn’t desperately curious about such questions. There may be some useful spin-off benefits regarding cleaner nuclear energy, and other practical technological “advances”, but, if so they will be unintended."

Cleaner nuclear energy... pffft, who wants that eh?
 
"The aims of the experiment do not include any practical advantages to us whatsoever as the experts fully admit. The scientists merely hope to find out if they can find the “Higgs boson” and add to their understanding of whether the universe is going to expand or contract and other matters of no consequence to anyone who isn’t desperately curious about such questions. There may be some useful spin-off benefits regarding cleaner nuclear energy, and other practical technological “advances”, but, if so they will be unintended."

Cleaner nuclear energy... pffft, who wants that eh?

That is something that can be achieved without doing this experiment. That is only a theoretical spin-off as well. Perhaps the odds are greater that it destroys the universe.
Also: we don't need nuclear energy since we could use solar, wind and other forms.
What you have here is science creating a problem: dirty nuclear and then doing even more risky things that might incidentally help fix the first problem
Digging itself deeper into a hole.
 
That's fine if that article represents your personal opinion, but it is a very biased piece of journalism (as most journalistic pieces are). Furthermore, it's based on an almost incredible amount of fear mongering. Of course there are cost issues, but the author of that article really has no idea what the risks are. Let's look at another piece of journalism that seems (at least to me) somewhat less biased.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/science/15risk.html