Plus ça change Plus c’est la même chose

[rokk]

The more things change the more the stay the same. - RUSH

I was watching Def Leppard Hysteria DVD the other day and while they were going thru the lineup changes I got to thinking about how lineup changes have affected various bands for the good and I think more noticably for the bad in many cases.

Also I was reading an interview from 1982 with Steve Harris of Iron Maiden who said "Changes are a pain in the ass, but there's no way you can carry on under certain circumstances. When you do make changes, you have to make sure they're for the better."

What are your thoughts on your favorite bands and the lineup changes they have gone thru for whatever reason (booted, quit or even death)? Are the changes ultimately good, bad or had no affect for the bands?

Rokk

 

[tedvanfrehley]

Honestly, I can't think of ONE band where the lineup changed and they didn't lose some of their original "fire". Even when better musicians or singers enter the lineup, some great music can be made, but it just ain't the same. Here are a few examples...and these are also a few of my favorite bands, which I like whatever the lineup, but they still don't hold a candle to the original.

VAN HALEN - David Lee Roth IS Van Halen. They made great music with Sammy, but they never had that swagger that the Roth albums had.

MOTLEY CRUE - again, Corabi is the better singer. But Vince had personality.

METALLICA - Ok, so Cliff died. They had to get a newbie. But then after Jason it's all downhill....plus, Bob Rock is more a member than Kirk Hammett

KISS - ACE AND PETER, please!

GUNS N ROSES - When Izzy left it was all a joke after that. And then came Dizzy Reed??!

WASP - CHRIS HOLMES!!! IF Chris ain't playing, it ain't shit. And Blackie should'a stayed on bass.

These are just my humble opinions. Chances are, if you love a band's original lineup, then the new guys just won't cut it....ever.....

 

[Ayeka]

What are your thoughts on your favorite bands and the lineup changes they have gone thru for whatever reason (booted, quit or even death)? Are the changes ultimately good, bad or had no affect for the bands?

Blaze Bayley getting booted from Maiden and Steve Williams getting booted from DragonForce turned out to be great cos they went and formed quality new bands and now we got more music to enjoy!

 

[Trans-Siberian Outcast]

I am hard pressed to think of any band who actually improved with a major line-up change. My first thought is Iron Maiden. Although I love the first two Maidens with Paul Di'anno, my faves are all with Bruce on vocals. But I'm still not sure there, because I think that Bruce was just a better fit for the direction that the Maiden music went in starting with Number of the Beast. Can you imagine Di'anno singing the songs for Number of Piece of Mind? It just wouldn't be the same. By the same token, Bruce's voice just wouldn't have fit with the first two Maidens.

Savatage is another that comes to mind, but even then I can't really say they improved. They just didn't get any worse after being forced to replace the late Criss Oliva and then Jon stepping aside to let Zak take over the vocal duties. I love Dead Winter Dead and Wake of Magellan...but I don't love them any more than I do Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, and Streets. Every stage of Savatage is like a child to me...I love them all equally.

I'm not sure you can always credit the downward slide of a band to departing members...certainly not in all instances. Changes are all part of life. It is hard enough for a husband and wife (two people) to make a relationship span through decades. It's even harder for four, five or even six guys (and their personalities) to make that relationship span the test of time. If you're going to blame the departure of band members when a band "jumps the shark", then it better be a major player(s) in the band; namely the singer or the songwriters, not some generic drummer, bassist or rhythm guitarist.

I think much of the decline of bands has to do with what I call the creativity well. You can only draw off the well for so long before you start coming up empty. This applies to all forms of art: musicians, authors, screenwriters, etc. Most art forms are asked to produce at an unrealistic rate. An album or book every year? How long can a musician/author be expected to produce a quality product at such a rate? I think that in many cases the departure of band members comes when they've drawn their creativity well dry and frustration sets in.

I feel the two are linked, creativity blanks and inner turmoil, at least in most cases. And I think the creativity blank generally comes first.

 

[Wyvern]

Good thread. Let's see some study cases:

1) Motorhead: 4 guitar players and 3 drummers over a 30 year span. A bit there and a bit here the musi is essentially the same since "On Parole" to "Inferno" the biggest change was with Brina Robertson on "Another Perfect Day", but the band came out as nothing after changing 1 guitar by 2, plus a drummer and returning with "Orgasmatron". Lemmy has always found good, reliable performers to get into his view of the music.

2) Iron Maiden: first singer change worked, drummer changed worked. After all nothing worked when it came to changes.

3) Judas Priest: several drummer changes and all worked. When it came to the singer it didn't work (but wasn't his fault).

4) Black Sabbath: first singer change worked, second change still worked. Then the changes also change the band spirit. Basically IMO you need at least Iommi and Butler aboard, also I prefer Ward over any other drummer. As for singing, they never had a bad one, only different styles.

5) Sinergy: the original line-up on the debut was cool. People from In Flames (Hammerfall), CoB, Arch Enemy (Mercyful Fate), Dionisyus came together for a different approach to metal. The band never was able to repeat the formula due to changes in the line-up mainly.

6) Amorphis: the band changed both musically and in the line-up from death to progressive metal. I prefer their post "Tuonela" sound and singer.

7) Sentenced: also changed from death to melodic metal. I prefer from "Down" and above.

8) Dream Theater: two singers and three keyboardists. The singer change was for the better. I believe that the Derek Sherinian era was more commercial than the Moore era. But as a solo artist Sherinian is way more much progressive than the actual sound of the band. And Rudess is also cool on his own. My guess is that the remaining members are not using the advantages/challenges of the line-up change, and are draining away the potential of the band.

 

[JonnyD]

Savatage is another that comes to mind, but even then I can't really say they improved. They just didn't get any worse after being forced to replace the late Criss Oliva and then Jon stepping aside to let Zak take over the vocal duties. I love Dead Winter Dead and Wake of Magellan...but I don't love them any more than I do Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, and Streets. Every stage of Savatage is like a child to me...I love them all equally.

Thats Beautiful Man ......... I do Completely agree with this Statement though!

 

[Trans-Siberian Outcast]

Sorry JD, didn't mean to make you cry!

Interesting case studies, Wyv. In some cases, changes work okay, but as a general rule major changes kill the lifeblood of a band. I was only thinking old school in my reply and failed to consider some of my favorite modern bands.

I don't know if member changes were behind it, but there are several bands I love now that I didn't care for when they first started out; and they are invariably former death metal bands. Therion, Cruachan, and Orphaned Land were all predominantly brutal death metal bands who have all turned their focus to more of a progressive metal direction. Like I said, I'm not familiar enough with their histories to say member changes were behind the change, but I am very happy they've progressed into the high quality metal they are today.

But other than the above mentioned bands, I always seem to like the original incarnations of my fave bands, back when their songwriting was fresh. Like authors, I think most musicians create their best art earlier in their careers (like the first five to ten years), before the frustrations/challenges of their chosen path begin to poison and wear down their creative minds.

 

[KMADD]

Have to agree with Ted on this one!!! Esp. about Van Halen eddie needs to swallow
his fucking pride and bring Roth back in the fold so I can finally see the real VH!!

 

[Wyvern]

Interesting case studies, Wyv. In some cases, changes work okay, but as a general rule major changes kill the lifeblood of a band. I was only thinking old school in my reply and failed to consider some of my favorite modern bands.

Well I was thinking about classic bands mostly. I include some newer ones to spice the study. I'll take for granted that newer bands that experience line-up changes very fast is a bad sign.

I can understand Wyman leaving the Stones due to...whatever after > 30 or more years with them. I understand Lord leaving DP after considerable time. I understand Newsted leaving Metallica. But a phenonema like Sinergy was ludicrous for me, the whole idea was a project, not a stable band.
I can recall the name, but I read no so long a go about a band (Scandanavian) that recorded the debut and the singer quit, awful way to start IMO.

 

[JonnyD]

Sorry JD, didn't mean to make you cry!

 

[Trans-Siberian Outcast]

Hey JD? What's that album cover in your Savatar...er Avatar? I haven't seen that one.

 

[JonnyD]

That is actually a Cover for a 15 min Bootleg Recorded in 1989 in Tampa Fla.... I found it here http://www.savatage.at/

 

[Trans-Siberian Outcast]

Aahh, a bootleg cover. They sure do come up with some creative covers on those bootlegs. I particularly like the ones where they merge album covers. Pretty cool!

 

[JonnyD]

Yeah its pretty cool I wanted to find a Sava-Ava that was Unique ... Ispeaking of which I have a Sava Boot from London in '87 with them doing all kinds of stuff from Power of the night and Fight for the rock + Sirens and Dungeons cool cool shit ... Hearing Hyde live alone was worth getting it!

 

[Bryant]

What are your thoughts on your favorite bands and the lineup changes they have gone thru for whatever reason (booted, quit or even death)? Are the changes ultimately good, bad or had no affect for the bands?

Rokk

Black Sabbath always had an uncanny way of re-inventing themselves. I like ALL eras.

Metal Church also had two awesome eras. I much prefer the Howe era, but the original members rocked as well.

Call me weird, but I prefer 80's Kiss over the "classic" lineup.

I can think of many original lineups that blow away "pseudo" bands that carry a name, but I thought I would add a few that were equal or better than the original.


Bryant

 

[Bryant]

--snip--

I think much of the decline of bands has to do with what I call the creativity well. You can only draw off the well for so long before you start coming up empty. This applies to all forms of art: musicians, authors, screenwriters, etc.

--snip--

I agree 100%. I often bring up the same analogy. However, creativity is dependent on so many factors, such as: Imagination, inspiration, maturity (as in responsibilty shifts,) complacency, boredom with one's craft and resolve above all else. I am sure I could think of other things to put in there, but an artist that is able to satisfy the majority of his/her critics for an extended period of time is the exception rather than the rule.


Bryant

 

[Bryant]

--snip--

I think much of the decline of bands has to do with what I call the creativity well. You can only draw off the well for so long before you start coming up empty. This applies to all forms of art: musicians, authors, screenwriters, etc.

--snip--

I agree 100%. I often bring up the same analogy. However, creativity is dependent on so many factors, such as: Imagination, inspiration, maturity (as in responsibilty shifts,) complacency, boredom with one's craft and resolve above all else. I am sure I could think of other things to put in there, but an artist that is able to satisfy the majority of his/her critics for an extended period of time is the exception rather than the rule.


Bryant

 

[zeppelin]

Bruce works for Maiden in the same way that Brian works for AC/DC, the originals were great but in no way superior imo, perhaps because I've heard Bruce era before Paul's and Brian before Scott's. I think besides Sabbath there's no other band that ever pulled it off the way these guys did, I mean you can pretty much replace every member in a band except the lead singer and they could still sound the same.

 

[#1_Droogie]

well if you want to talk about replacements, one band that comes to my mind is Megadeth

You cant have 'deth without Dave, thats a given. But i must say, i liked the Chris Poland, Jeff Young, AND Marty Friedman eras all so much....maybe the Poland era a little bit better.






okay so i like it a lot better, so shoot me

 

[Griffin-]

for a minute i thought we were going to discuss french metal