Slayer thoughts...

[Jim LotFP]

... I've been updating my (long discarded) cassette versions of the Slayer albums. Show No Mercy through Seasons in the Abyss. (not going to buy Live Undead just to get Haunting the Chapel on CD)

So, Slayer, after a couple weeks re-review.

When they're bad, they're awful. When they're good, it justifies the status they hold in heavy metal.

Fact: Slayer always knew what song to use as the title track. It's reliably the best song on the album. (Raining Blood for Reign in Blood obviously).

Fact: Working with Rick Rubin was a swell idea for Slayer.

Fact: Araya was quite the versatile vocalist. (the whole Undisputed Attitude/"punk influence" thing seems so obvious listening to those early albums... yeah, hindsight and all...)... his usal rarararar, his every-so-often high screams, and every so often, actual singing. And he should have been hired for those Micro Machine commercials.

Fact: Thinking about Slayer and genre definitions makes my head hurt. Reign in Blood isn't death metal? Alright. But they don't sound like Testament and Anthrax and Annihilator and Megadeth and Metallica and all those other thrash bands, do they? *throbbing headache*

When I was 17 years old, just away at school, they brought in this "video production company" that let you lipsynch to some song and basically shot a music video against a backdrop and cheap special effects. I brought in my tape and did War Ensemble. heh. Lamest shit ever, nevermind the not-yet-grown-out-mullet, green tie-dye shirt, air guitar techniques while holding a real guitar, and what have you. Hopefully that tape never gets in the wrong hands.

 

[Some Bastard]

Fact: Thinking about Slayer and genre definitions makes my head hurt. Reign in Blood isn't death metal? Alright. But they don't sound like Testament and Anthrax and Annihilator and Megadeth and Metallica and all those other thrash bands, do they? *throbbing headache*

Fact: It doesn't matter. It's metal and it's good and that's basically all the info you need *no headache at all*

 

[DBB]

Reign in Blood isn't death metal? Alright. But they don't sound like Testament and Anthrax and Annihilator and Megadeth and Metallica and all those other thrash bands, do they? *throbbing headache*

You’re not alone, but I don’t know if it will help your headache…

Reign in Blood is truly a hellish death metal album and will rule the underground scene…This album will definitely change the way the world looks at the death metal world.

George Sulmers, "Slayer Reign in Blood" Metal Mania February 1987.

In the August issue of Terrorizer Kerry King claims that Slayer was “black metal” up until RiB, but does not elaborate on what the band became--thrash metal would be the logical conclusion from the surrounding article.

I also remember Mike Muir vehemently claiming that RiB was a punk album back when it came out (I thought he was half-nuts--half, mind you-- then and half-nuts now).

These terms are something we cannot get away from, I would certainly call it thrash in an offhanded manner and have more than once in the past, but the most important part is the metal.

Things would have been different if Quorthon would have had his way:

Once I had this question sheet from a magazine and they asked me whether Bathory was death metal, black metal, thrash metal, zombie metal, or even corpse pile metal or simply just skullcrushing fucking metal...What happened to heavy metal?! Bathory is simply just a metal band. It may be totally hellpaced, it may be heavy and really slow. I may sing about Satan, hell, perverted sex, cunts, the power of the weather, blasphemy and... or a totally evil epic; I may dress up in spikes, studded black leather, chains, spit blood, and breath fire, wear all these upside down black crosses and bounce my guitar to the wall while doing the leads in the studio; but it's still metal--has always been and will always be metal!

KICK*ASS Magazine November 1985.

 

[BenMech]

Fact: It doesn't matter. It's metal and it's good and that's basically all the info you need *no headache at all*

Metal, yes. Good? debatable. Anyone who says otherwise is a fangirl

 

[Jim LotFP]

I also remember Mike Muir vehemently claiming that RiB was a punk album back when it came out (I thought he was half-nuts--half, mind you-- then and half-nuts now).

I don't know that anyone wholly sane could claim Slayer as punk, but knowing what I know now it's pretty obvious punk was a signficant chunk of the formula!

 

[Some Bastard]

Metal, yes. Good? debatable. Anyone who says otherwise is a fangirl

I'm that when it comes to Slayer (although I think South Of Heaven is better)

 

[BenMech]

SoH and SitA are better than RiB. This is factual. Aftert SitA, Slayer screw the pooch. DI has some interesting ideas. UA is ok for a tribute album (yeah, I know how much Jim hates tribute albums). DiM,GHUA, and CI are just junk.

Pre-RIB Slayer has variable quality dynamics, if you will.

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

.
Fact: Thinking about Slayer and genre definitions makes my head hurt. Reign in Blood isn't death metal? Alright. But they don't sound like Testament and Anthrax and Annihilator and Megadeth and Metallica and all those other thrash bands, do they? *throbbing headache*

At the Gates doesn't sound like Deicide either...

Still, it's fairly obvious that Hell Awaits and Reign in Blood are transitional albums both influential on the first wave of death metal (Master/Death Strike, Sepultura, Possessed, Morbid Angel, Autopsy etc.) and influenced by those same bands, as well as taking some structural cues from other proto-extreme metal acts (notably Hellhammer/Celtic Frost). Obviously, Slayer never put the entire packaged together needed to move from speed metal to death metal (in fact, increasingly falling back on more conventional speed metal - then eventually the hardcore of their youth - with subsequent releases), but so much of the structural and riff lexicon of American death metal comes out of Slayer's classic works that it's hard to look back now and draw the line precisely.

 

[DBB]

Obviously, Slayer never put the entire packaged together needed to move from speed metal to death metal (in fact, increasingly falling back on more conventional speed metal.

You and your speed metal. I find this unsupported and unsubstantiated refusal to use the word “thrash” more quaint than anything now. In fact, if you actually knew how these genres evolved as semantic entities you would probably be more inclined to use thrash as opposed to speed…but that is a story for another day. I’m more concerned with “hate metal” today. Man….people just have no clue about the past, but I’m learning some most interesting things and will share soon enough.

I see that your pals are latching on to things:

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/metalocalypse/


And this:

http://www.anus.com/metal/about/metal/underground_metal/

Wow! How you can pass this along as gospel with no comment whatsoever is astounding. You are much more intelligent than that, MacLaurie, if that is even your real name. But given the manner in which you just air random thoughts with no evidence, it is unsurprising.

What is with all these different keyboard names? Surely someone with your writing skills is not content with roaming the message boards like a shade and piggybacking on threads in hopes of conveying a political message that you claim is not political.

Who are you really? Do you even know at this point? I’d be interested to read some of your independent writing if you have it to share or are you part of the ANUS stable and I’ve already come across some of you fine prose?

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

But given the manner in which you just air random thoughts with no evidence, it is unsurprising.

Because, after all, pointing out that the term 'thrash' originated in the skateboard subculture and was initially applied to bands that were frequently called 'crossover' in the later parlance is totally unsubstantiated whereas claiming that all of the labels and all of the major 'zines conspired (in cahoots with the biggest bands in the genre) to change the meaning of metal sometime around 1992 is totally airtight. Not to mention that nothing says "political agenda" like discussing the subtleties of music genre distinctions. I

Give me a break Dave (if that's your real name). You're bitter old fart who long ago lost his passion, and now casts about blindly for someone to blame. But here's the secret - no one took your passion. No one stole your music. You did it to yourself 'Dave' - you did it the day you surrendered to pompous pendantry and the desire to take social ownership of the scene.

 

[DBB]

Because, after all, pointing out that the term 'thrash' originated in the skateboard subculture and was initially applied to bands that were frequently called 'crossover' in the later parlance is totally unsubstantiated

Could you be a bit clearer about all of this? I am genuinely interested, but this tells me absolutely nothing. I could claim that heavy metal emerged from a scientific subculture obsessed with the bottom end of the periodic table employing the same vague rationale. Examples? Dates? Bands? Anything to hang our hats on beyond your personal fancy?

 

[Cheiron]

I like wikipedia. So bite me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrash_metal

 

[Jim LotFP]

I like wikipedia. So bite me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrash_metal

"Welcome to Wikipedia,
the free encyclopedia that any moron can edit."

 

[Cheiron]

Yes. Its true. But its a decent place to start (I usually check their sources to find the most worthwhile information).

However, reading through their history it seems fairly accurate. Though I'm sure its not as in depth as would be necessary to fully support MMM's position. No doubt that thrash was influenced by Hardcore punk. But... I don't recall the skater community referring to the music as thrashers (though thrashers was a term for skating.. so its possible).

Either way we all know that Atlanta is the most metal town in America, since our hockey team is named after a style of metal .. Atlanta Thrashers (okay.. so that isn't why its named that. Again. Bite me. I was in Blackwing Lair last night therefore I'm obviously cooler than you >_> (see: World of Warcraft))

 

[DBB]

No doubt that thrash was influenced by Hardcore punk. But... I don't recall the skater community referring to the music as thrashers (though thrashers was a term for skating.. so its possible).

There is no doubt about the influence. It would be foolish to claim otherwise, but the reluctance to use the term "thrash" because it had something to do with skateboarding is just dumb and not really what I'm concerned about. As early as 1983 people were referring to bands like Exciter as playing thrashing metal but not "thrash metal," so it wasn't like no one was employing thrash as an adjective before hardcore and metal openly and vocally merged in the mid-80s. But this is all just nitpicking. It really gets down to the fact that MMM equates thrash with "liberalism" and speed with some half-baked romantic values to make thrash something alien which supposedly existed outside the boundaries of metal in a way and something not self-generated (those damn radical skateboarders and their words)--which is just daft.

Shit...."power metal" would be the more accurate subgenre to use if we were going to go down that road, but of course that is impossible to employ now since that means something entirely different.

It is odd, pretty much everything and anything was combined and used before 1986 (even things like sludge metal) as writers, bands and fans threw out every combination they could. Speed and thrash were basically synonyms and became such very quickly.

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

Could you be a bit clearer about all of this? I am genuinely interested, but this tells me absolutely nothing. I could claim that heavy metal emerged from a scientific subculture obsessed with the bottom end of the periodic table employing the same vague rationale. Examples? Dates? Bands? Anything to hang our hats on beyond your personal fancy?

The term "thrash" as a musical descriptor originated around 82/83 and was first used to describe DRI and Corrosion of Conformity - bands who fused music that was tonally, structurally and conceptually derived from hardcore with the rhythmic discipline of metal. The original bands were closely associated with the skateboard underground and used a lot of thrasher humor and iconography in their music and album art, which is how the tag "thrash" got applied in the first place (and also explains one of the other, less successful tags "skate punk"). There was enough similarity between thrash and speed metal (one being an evolution of hardcore tinged with metal and the other being an evolution of metal tinged with hardcore) that it's pretty easy to see how label execs, ad men and media types not necessarily intimately familiar with either scene could conflate them. And 'thrash metal' just had a nicer ring to it from a marketing perspective than less brandable terms like "speed metal" and "power metal."

That does not, however, make them one and the same. Speed metal (Slayer, Metallica, Kreator etc.) is metal, and is composed like metal. Thrash (DRI, Corrosion of Conformity, Suicidal Tendencies etc.) is composed like hardcore, using a relatively limited array of musical and lyrical memes rather than the riff salad typical of metal. There are also major differences in how ideas are presented. Both genres are, in general, "liberal" (or even leftist) in their political outlooks, but speed metal follows the romanticist tradition of metal in presenting most of its protests in the form of some sort of horror narrative (classic examples, Metallica's various anti-war anthems), while thrash adopted the more PoMo posture of punk, protesting either through repeated slogans or absurdist humor and irony.

In any event - sorry it took so long to respond, I've been rather busy of late.

 

[DBB]

that it's pretty easy to see how label execs, ad men and media types not necessarily intimately familiar with either scene could conflate them. And 'thrash metal' just had a nicer ring to it from a marketing perspective than less brandable terms like "speed metal" and "power metal."

Examples? Or, to put it another way: Evidence?

but speed metal follows the romanticist tradition of metal in presenting most of its protests in the form of some sort of horror narrative (classic examples, Metallica's various anti-war anthems)

Conrete examples of the type of type of horror you are talking about using Metallica as an example. Is it "One" and "Heroes" you are talking about here?

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

I don't pretend to have exhaustively combed the written record, but I can't really think of any references to 'thrash metal' as a genre in any of the hundreds of old 'zines I've collected over the years prior to 1985 or so - while the term was definitely being thrown about in reference to DRI in 83/84. Prior to 85, the terms I've observed being used most were 'speed metal,' and, for the more occult oriented acts, 'black metal.'

And yeah, you can find the speed metal approach to social protest illustrated in much of Metallica's early work: "For Whom the Bell Tolls"; "Ride the Lightning"; "Master of Puppets"; "Welcome Home (Sanitarium)"; "Blackened"; "...And Justice for All"; and the "Shortest Straw", in addition to the two you've already cited, not to mention similar songs (Exodus "And Then There Were None"; Slayer "Piece by Piece"; Kreator "Under the Guillotine" etc.) from many other speed metal acts. These can all be seen to fit within a definite tradition of 'protest' in metal that leans heavily on a rather literary sense of horror found in other metal songs not associated with the speed metal scene itself (Black Sabbath "War Pigs"; Judas Priest "Beyond the Realms of Death"; Iron Maiden "Hallowed be Thy Name").

Compare those to the lyrical style of stuff like DRI's "Reaganomics" (which recalls Discharge), Cryptic Slaughter's "State Control" or Corrosion of Conformity's "Poison Planet" (both in a more generalized hardcore tradition) and you'll see the enormous gap in presentation, even though the basic ideological content is the same.

 

[DBB]

I don't pretend to have exhaustively combed the written record, but I can't really think of any references to 'thrash metal' as a genre in any of the hundreds of old 'zines I've collected over the years prior to 1985 or so - while the term was definitely being thrown about in reference to DRI in 83/84. Prior to 85, the terms I've observed being used most were 'speed metal,' and, for the more occult oriented acts, 'black metal.'

That was not my question. You are merely repeating yourself and adding nothing new to what you said before. What evidence do you have of industry insiders being the ones who are responsible for the adoption of the word thrash?

I also noticed that you did not respond to my query about Metallica?

Is this because you have nothing to say beyond the response that you have used here on many occassions?

 

[My Man Mahmoud]

My sense that the move came from the press and the labels has to do with the earliest evidence I've seen of the term. In the 85 zines I have, "thrash metal" appears more in the ads than anywhere else (along with "black metal" and "death metal" being applied pretty much without any rhyme or reason). At best, of course, this is anecdotal evidence, most of what I've got are old British rags, and not much in the way of the more fanzine type stuff.