The Loudness War

[Vicioushead]

Are there pros to making everything extremely loud at all? This approach seems to get a lot of negative attention, many people I have talked to think it ruins music and obviously removes punch and dynamics.

What do you guys think? Do you always push the volume on your own recordings?

 

[Mm1066]

I personally find it annoying. If I'm listening to something on my music player and the next song is twice as loud I'll just turn it down until its as quiet as the last one. I don't think there are any pros at all, besides maybe bringing more energy to the music if it's smazzhed too faaaaauuk

 

[Ermz]

There's a happy medium. Smashing something does bring a degree of excitement to the sound, as it pushes up the harmonics and the ambiance, but if you take it to the point where you lose all your low-end and transients then it's a bit self defeating, innit.

 

[Taurean]

Technically, yea there is a benefit. But as stated already, there is and should be a limit. If we take Fletcher Munson into consideration, hearing is not linear at different SPL's. And around certain SPL's more and more frequencies are perceived more linearly - not completely of course. Loudness enhancement can therefore convey for example certain low frequencies that would otherwise not be perceived at a given SPL giving the listening experience a broadband quality rather than a sparse one where again for example certain upper mid range frequencies would be dominant. The limit to loudness naturally lies in the fact that one will induce distortion, destroy transients, shrink crest factor, subdue micro/macro dynamics: basically lose the stuff that makes music, music. So a happy medium between loudness enhancement and retaining musical elements - give or take depending on the genre - is definitely called for.

 

[Shinozoku]

Are there pros to making everything extremely loud at all? This approach seems to get a lot of negative attention, many people I have talked to think it ruins music and obviously removes punch and dynamics.

What do you guys think?

You tell me. Read, look, and listen to this article.
http://recordinghacks.com/2008/12/20/metallica-wins-the-loudness-wars/

 

[Doctor Gay]

the loudness world is over hyped, when your at zero you are fine. fyeah a little clipping is okay, but i can't perceive anything over 2 db being useful commercially!

 

[Melb_shredder]

If you can push it loud but still retain a good amount of punchiness and transients etc with minimal/ no clipping, then I don't think it's a bad thing. But when you can hear the detrimental effects to the mix such as Death Magnetic, which are obvious WITHOUT the comparison, then it's unacceptable. I've also heard some more recent album which have some ear rapingly bad clipping and it's a wonder at how it gets released.


For the most part, most current album which are pretty darn hot probably wouldn't sound much better, or better at all being more dynamic running a little less hot, depending on the music. It comes down to the individual doing the work and the music being produced.
How much dynamics does the music call for? How hard can I push it before it becomes detrimental etc.... Some music IMO sounds better with the 'ALWAYS-LOUD-ALWAYS-EXCITING' style of mix/ master, some just calls for it. But others don't and that's what distinction needs to be made by those involved in the production of whatever album etc. The whole 'Loudness War' issue is sitting at the safe and stable vs destructive and loud point, so find one way of doing it that is acceptable, works best for your work and stick with it IMO.

The Metallica Death Magnetic issue is a pretty good example of, BLATANT and easy to notice destruction of a mix. It's an example that any idiot with a set of ears can hear which is good. The comparison with the GH tracks is great because if further illustrates how much of a difference it made in the end. I just don't think the whole loudness war is as bad as it is made out, but hey.. who am I to say

 

[Jordon]

Here's a fun little story:

2 weeks ago I did a set of final mix and masters for a band's EP. They went for a drive to do one final check on the mixes just to be sure we were all finished up. I was thrilled, personally, and thought they were some of my best mixes to date.

They come back in and say that compared to the set of mixes from the week prior, they are "unacceptable." I couldn't figure out why. The new mixes were much more open sounding, clearer, punchier....just more together.

After a long conversation with the vocalist, it turns out it wasn't the mixes. The masters were slightly quieter, and they couldn't stand it. I explained they were a bit quieter because I wasn't as aggressive with the mastering on the final round. I tried to show them that the previous mixes were audibly clipping, so I backed things down to get rid of it.

Keep in mind, those previous "loud" mixes were fucking SLAMMED. They competed with the most recent RED album, which I think is stupidly loud.

So...Just because the masters were barely quieter, they demanded that I start "fixing the mixes." Talk about speaking to a brick wall....That ironically want's more brickwalling....Fuck.

Yea, let's just kill what little dynamic range we have left to make sure it's unbearably loud for no reason at all.

 

[Vicioushead]

Here's a fun little story:

2 weeks ago I did a set of final mix and masters for a band's EP. They went for a drive to do one final check on the mixes just to be sure we were all finished up. I was thrilled, personally, and thought they were some of my best mixes to date.

They come back in and say that compared to the set of mixes from the week prior, they are "unacceptable." I couldn't figure out why. The new mixes were much more open sounding, clearer, punchier....just more together.

After a long conversation with the vocalist, it turns out it wasn't the mixes. The masters were slightly quieter, and they couldn't stand it. I explained they were a bit quieter because I wasn't as aggressive with the mastering on the final round. I tried to show them that the previous mixes were audibly clipping, so I backed things down to get rid of it.

Keep in mind, those previous "loud" mixes were fucking SLAMMED. They competed with the most recent RED album, which I think is stupidly loud.

So...Just because the masters were barely quieter, they demanded that I start "fixing the mixes." Talk about speaking to a brick wall....That ironically want's more brickwalling....Fuck.

Yea, let's just kill what little dynamic range we have left to make sure it's unbearably loud for no reason at all.

I'm in a similar situation at the moment (albeit, I'm considerably more inexperienced than the folks on here). Local band want their mix to be punchy so I backed off the volume...turns out that their idea of punchy was to make everything LOUD AS FUCK.

 

[KHE]

maybe a little OT, but i find it very intressing how different play-back-systems react to some super-loud (clipping) CDs.
if i buy a new cd, i always listen to them first in my car while driving to work. when i heard metallicas death-magnetic first, i coudn`t understand what everyone is complaining about. everything sounded "ok" in my car.
but when i was listening at home through my A7`s.... same with hate`s "erebos".
does anyone have an explanation for this?
(to be honstest, i rellay know nothing about speakers and how they work...)

 

[Matula]

I once had a client who told me: "I don't care if it sounds bad, I want it to sound loud". But also, almost never, had clients telling me to go easy on the loudness.

 

[aramism]

there is something about 70s-90s records as they were in their original form and turning up the volume on them. they sound better. on any system.

take thriller, or ace of base, or depeche mode, listen to it compared to modern stuff and it's like hmm, this is a bit less powerful. then, turn up the volume, a lot. something very special and magical happens.

try turning up a modern master. sounds

 

[grywolf627]

there is something about 70s-90s records as they were in their original form and turning up the volume on them. they sound better. on any system.

take thriller, or ace of base, or depeche mode, listen to it compared to modern stuff and it's like hmm, this is a bit less powerful. then, turn up the volume, a lot. something very special and magical happens.

try turning up a modern master. sounds

This. Right here. You sir, have just hit the nail on the head.

 

[SocialNumb]

there is something about 70s-90s records as they were in their original form and turning up the volume on them. they sound better. on any system.

take thriller, or ace of base, or depeche mode, listen to it compared to modern stuff and it's like hmm, this is a bit less powerful. then, turn up the volume, a lot. something very special and magical happens.

try turning up a modern master. sounds

Just another +1 Shit all sucks now.

 

[Ashgarth]

there is something about 70s-90s records as they were in their original form and turning up the volume on them. they sound better. on any system.

take thriller, or ace of base, or depeche mode, listen to it compared to modern stuff and it's like hmm, this is a bit less powerful. then, turn up the volume, a lot. something very special and magical happens.

try turning up a modern master. sounds

+1!

 

[B36arin]

there is something about 70s-90s records as they were in their original form and turning up the volume on them. they sound better. on any system.

take thriller, or ace of base, or depeche mode, listen to it compared to modern stuff and it's like hmm, this is a bit less powerful. then, turn up the volume, a lot. something very special and magical happens.

try turning up a modern master. sounds

I'll just repeat what people have been saying here, this man speaks the truth.

Some of the biggest and best metal engineers out there have audible inter-sample clipping, annoying limiting etc. on their mixes. There are so many albums nowadays where I think "this sounds great, but if he'd back up the limiter 2-3dB it would KILL".

 

[aramism]

I like my masters loud, for reasons I mentioned in my last post. Get it as loud as you can without it affecting the signal in a negative way. I hate not being able to distinguish guitar playing from the noise of my engine in my car, and getting headaches after 5 minutes because of the drums absolutely pummeling you when cranked to a level where you can hear everything (Nirvana's Nevermind is a good example). I also hate cranking modern metal recordings on my home stereo and getting a headache after 5 minutes because of out-of-control bass and mushy clipping guitars.

Find a happy medium, try to make it sound good on a fat club sound system as well as a kitchen radio.
If the Lady Gaga producer dude can do it, why not metal mastering guys?

The stuff may sound ultra powerful when listened to on earbuds but its too much of a good thing.

dude. the new remasters of nevermind are doodoo.

there are so many great metal masters from like 8-12 years ago that sound amazing. arch enemy, limp bizkit, soad, sevendust, linkin park, testament, etc.

 

[Behind]

there is something about 70s-90s records as they were in their original form and turning up the volume on them. they sound better. on any system.

take thriller, or ace of base, or depeche mode, listen to it compared to modern stuff and it's like hmm, this is a bit less powerful. then, turn up the volume, a lot. something very special and magical happens.

try turning up a modern master. sounds

So true.


If you have spotify, try the following experiment. There's an option to even the levels of the songs. Enable it, play Billie Jean and after that play Bad Romance. Do you hear the difference? Or should I say... Do you FEEL the difference?

Billie Jean drum beat at the beginning moves a lot of air. It hits you in the chest. Now see what happens with lady gaga's song. Is there something hitting your chest now? No? Ok... So you have just experienced the lack of dynamics of the modern loud productions.

When I started to appreciate dynamics I discovered a whole new world. It was a huge change to me since then and sometimes I'd prefer to have not discovered it because now it's really difficult to listen to the most recent productions.

 

[Vicioushead]

dude. the new remasters of nevermind are doodoo.

there are so many great metal masters from like 8-12 years ago that sound amazing. arch enemy, limp bizkit, soad, sevendust, linkin park, testament, etc.

I wonder how "Anthems of Rebellion" was mastered. I love the album and find Arch Enemy (what I've heard) to be easy to listen to.

Stuff like Chimaira and recent Meshuggah albums have good music on them but I can't listen to more than 3 or 4 songs without feeling like my ears will pop.

 

[Arsenu,]

20 years from now, when you enter a pub, Led Zepellin will still be playing.

i think that's the only objective way to judge music, time.
other than that, has anyone ever mixed a song and when listening, before sending it to the mastering studio, the only think you could think is:

"this shit sounds sooooooo good! why the fuck do i even send it for mastering?"