What do u respect in music?

YaYo

whendaydescends.com
May 6, 2001
4,458
23
38
I tried to write this post before but i couldnt word it correctly so i gave up, so here is attempt number 2 :)

What things must be present for you to respect some music?
(eg, originality, technicallity, production, image, emotion, change, etc)

some questions to get you on the right track:
Can you respect music that isnt original if it is technically brilliant?
(eg. If a band comes along that are completely copying opeth but are doing it really well)
Can you respect music that isnt technically brilliant if it is original?
Is nothing important as long as the music is truely emotional?
Can you respect music that is written for money/fame reasons?
Or can you respect music that isnt emotional, but maybe has another purpose (such as dance music)?
Can you respect a band that changes because the fans want it to change?
etc..

whenever i ask questions im usually confusing :loco: , i wonder if this is the same.......
 
Originally posted by YaYoGakk
Can you respect music that isnt original if it is technically brilliant? (eg. If a band comes along that are completely copying opeth but are doing it really well)
Yes, definitely. I don't know why people raise such a fuss about a band sounding like another band -- of course people are going to have influences! I would always give credit to the originator, but I wouldn't write off a band for sounding like another, if done well.

Can you respect music that isnt technically brilliant if it is original?
Personally, no. I mean, "respect" and "liking" are two different things. I wouldn't listen to music played poorly. I don't have a huge problem with simple music, but I take it as an insult when a band releases an album with crappy playing on it, or singing off key. Some like it for being "raw," but screw that -- if I wanted raw, I'd record myself. If you've got the money to be in a studio, fix things dammit! :mad:

Can you respect music that is written for money/fame reasons?
Respect as music, no. Respect that someone had the smarts to market themselves and wind up rich as hell, yes. And I respect people like Britney Spears for being entertainers -- just not musicians. That girl can dance.

Or can you respect music that isnt emotional, but maybe has another purpose (such as dance music)?
Here's something to think about -- dance music is deeply emotional for its followers. I know 'cause I used to be one. :p True, the lyrics aren't usually interesting. Then again, your perception of "dance music" is probably the same as people thinking nu-metal is "metal." But losing yourself in that beat while dancing in the dark with your eyes closed, sweat everywhere, can be extremely emotional.

Can you respect a band that changes because the fans want it to change?
Has any band actually done this? I've heard of bands changing for financial reasons and for personal reasons -- but simply because the fans want them to change? And do fans of a band ever want it to change? I mean, if they already like them, why would they want a change? Sorry, I'm creating more confusion. :rolleyes:
 
alright! now that i have a reply i'll express some of my own opinions.

my thoughts are pretty much the same as yours Lina! :)

Originality: When i heard opeth for the first time i'd heard the music id always longed for and been attempting to write (with complete failure on my part)... so after hearing opeth my music has been very Opeth influenced, i dont see this as a bad point because my music is still *me*. Influences are good. (eg Thales = good)

Technicallity: I respect anyone who writes music. If they can only play 2 chords yet write music that is special to them then i respect that. Most likely i wont like the actual music though as i think musical skill and knowledge allow the writer to write music more accurately/emotionally.. and since there are such amazing bands as Opeth out there, theres no point listening to the simple stuff!

Money/Fame:
Respect as music, no. Respect that someone had the smarts to market themselves and wind up rich as hell, yes. And I respect people like Britney Spears for being entertainers -- just not musicians. That girl can dance.
My thoughts exactly! i had something similar to that in my post originally, but i removed it.

Has any band actually done this?
quotes ive heard from megadeth tell me that this is the case with them, i dont believe they really chaged style to get more fame or money, but it seemed it was more about pleasing the fans they already had. Its hard to say whether this is a good or bad thing. If they still love their own music, then i guess its a good thing, just a different aspect of music than i normally get into.
 
Tough question.

I believe that for the most part I can respect music if it:

1. Involves a certain degree of talent- I'm not talking about being Yngwie or Spiral Architect, but I can't respect artists who haven't put some hard work and dedication into their music. For example, take a certain amount of rap artists (I use that term regrettably) out there (and I'm not talking about ALL of them). How could I possibly respect someone who "speaks in a rhythmic way" about abusing women, killing cops, etc. all the while being "coached" by a greedy producer and having being provided with a generic electronic drum and bass loop that barely deviates AT ALL throughout the entire song. Sure, maybe they came up with the lyrics, the rhymes, and they certainly must have a sense of rhythm to do what they do but this is a classic example of "not having a high enough degree of talent to earn my respect." I admit, though, that this is purely my opinion.

2. Comes from the heart- In other words, the artist has to truly believe, love, and enjoy what he/she is doing.

These two prerequisites must go hand in hand. Sure, the rapper may "believe" in writing about shooting his homey over some sort of gang bullshit, but how much talent does he have?

Originality- I really could care less, as long as the artist isn't completely ripping off another. We all have influences and it's very difficult to find something that doesn't at least sound like something else. I find that there's something unique about almost all bands out there. I think it's just natural that musically speaking, no two minds think exactly the same, unless we're talking about a blatant copycat.

Music for money/fame- If I can tell that the artist finds no worth or enjoyment in what he/she does and does it strictly for money and fame then that is something I cannot respect. Kind of along the same lines as Lina said, though, you've got to give them credit for at least achieving their goal. But respect, no.

Production- I don't really care too much about production, as long as it's not so poor that I find it irritable to listen to. For the most part, notes are notes, and the emotion I'll feel from listening to those notes will be the same regardless of whether the artist records in a studio with a million dollars worth of equipment or a few hundred.
 
Respecting music..hmmm...

I respect music if that's what it is, just music. Where I have a problem is when musicians use music as a forum to get some real message accross. For instance, Ice-T coming out of L.A., with all the hatred. His music was a forum to state his side of the story, and how bad it was with the police. I'm not questionaing how bad it was, just that personally, I had always believed music was an outlet for the listener, not a forum for the artist to speak his/her message to the potential millions who would buy an album and listen. That's when Ii loose respect for an artist. Go to the newspaper, go on TV with an interview, but don't put your message in an album for sale on music shelfs.
 
I like music.. if its good..
I respect musicians.. if they are real people, not just faces..
I listen to music.. if it affects me.. (Stabbing Westward [WBBP & Darkest Days], Opeth, Soulstruck Soul)
I talk to musicians.. if they are nice enough to talk back.
 
The promotion is key. If it doesn't involve breasts and the word "jungle" somewhere, y'know, it just doesn't do it for me. Oh, and I don't really need to hear any "notes", just rhythm n' rhymes, thanks.

Heh, anyways...

Ummm... I think Soul Forlorn pretty much nailed this one down. My original impulse to this thread was to value originality, but everything is derived from something else... is anything truly "original" anymore? (a seperate debate, methinks)

Respect is given for different things. I gve Madonna and Marilyn Manson much repect for their self-marketing abilities. For their music, I generally don't. I repect them as businesspeople and entertainers, not as artists, and this goes back to my key distinction between art and entertainment.

None of the points listed are key for me, per se. I can respect a band's technicality, yet rather dislike the experience of actually lsitening to what they put on audiotape. My tastes are irrelivant to the question, tho.

Generally, if the music was a result of talent, created in accordance with the intent of the music, I can respect it. However, respect isn't a boolean variable. It's not an on/off kinda thing (as far as I'm concerned). I have far more respect for the artists who are good at what they do and strive to produce original, complicated, emotional music than the entertainers who have people compose simple, formulaic songs to make money, but that's opinion - I wouldn't attempt to compare the two objectively.

I'm tired and rambling. I actually have very cohesive arguments here, but function isn't braining correctly.
 
1 Can you respect music that isnt original if it is technically brilliant?
(eg. If a band comes along that are completely copying opeth but are doing it really well)
2 Can you respect music that isnt technically brilliant if it is original?
Is nothing important as long as the music is truely emotional?
3 Can you respect music that is written for money/fame reasons?
Or can you respect music that isnt emotional, but maybe has another purpose (such as dance music)?
4 Can you respect a band that changes because the fans want it to change?

1 Yes. I admire good executants being a so so myself
2 Yes. Technique can Develop, Original Concepts are just there or not
3 No. I could only if they are good technically speaking
4. No. I could also if they where technically asome too
 
as for me, i can respect every music which makes others happy or entertains them in any way. my taste of music is, what it is - a taste - and therefore i cannot judge about music i dislike. i had a discussion about that with a friend of mine, who was of the opinion that music could be rated objectively, as for him, good music equals technical performance. i totally disagree. if the music of britney spears makes people feel happy, it's good music. it also has the effect that when being on such a concert, those people are out of my sight, and that's brilliant, isn't it?
and as for the money/fame reason, you still have to think about how to earn money. if you want to live quite convenient from your performances and records, you just have to promote yourself. even the upcoming black metal bands which i've seen yesterday on a concert do this in order to get some popularity. it's nothing wrong with that.
 
Originally posted by Sullen Jester
I like music.. if its good..
I respect musicians.. if they are real people, not just faces..
I listen to music.. if it affects me.. ( Opeth)
I talk to musicians.. if they are nice enough to talk back.

i agree. i also like if it a musicain isnt scared to experiment, ok it could backfire, but if its done well enough you could add another level to the music. i like a band that makes you emotional and when you put on a song, you can really get into it.
 
Distinguishing respect from taste is often very hard, and I too forget about it sometimes, allowing more space for my taste than some question about music actually requires. These two factors that lead to our eventual conception of a piece of music are imperative to separate.

I respect all kinds of music as they are mediums for the artists to channel their thoughts, will and wishes. I have to respect their music for that; no genre of music is evil in itself. What I do not necessarily have to respect is the actual motivation for making music. A neo-nazi punk band could have some drive and passion to their music which, while I may not like it, I have to respect since it holds qualities people may like. I can not respect the artist's views, however, since wanting racial purity and extermination of 'filthy' peoples is very foolish and so on.

As for realization, the question becomes more difficult. Should I not respect a band that is original but is nothing more than quite average as far as handling of instruments goes? I personally would, since an original concept is testimonial to the different mindset the artist has. I would only advise the artist to do something about one's technical skills. And if a group executes their material excellently but is nothing more than a carbon copy of Children of Bodom, I would have to have some veneration for the band for their technical abilities, but also advising them to come up with something more original. But we also have to think of what the artist actually wants, and when we examine this beyond the realm of ethical evaluation (ruling out nazism and other ideologies in music) we have to sacrifice our personal desires for what we want to hear in music to respecting the artist's will. I have no right to disrespect a band that wants to sound like CoB just because it might be original to sound different (and, besides, no band can sound exactly like another one), but in exchange they would also have to respect my opinions enough not to disrespect me for not liking their music.

So, I think music is a thing to be respected regardless of the style. There is always someone who will like a piece of music and that fact demands respect. The attitudes and messages mediated through music are a different story.
 
I respect bands who play what they really like and are not afraid to change drastically from album to album,like Ulver for example... I respect bands who play for themselves,without changing their music because of the fans or the fame...
Bands who are original surely deserve a lot of respect,even when they are not technically brilliant...The latter can change with time,while not being original isn't improved so easily i think....
Technically brilliant but not original music is also cool,but the problem is that it can't capture your attention for a long time...I mean i'll listen to their stuff for some time,but then I'll grow bored of it...but this is a personal "habit".....So anyway i respect less original bands...if they are not CCOPYCATS of course! :D
I want music to be emotional and passionate,to come straight form the band-member's heart :) There are many bands who are maybe not so awesomely talented,but they sound so great,simnply because they are passionate in what they are doing and that shows...look at carpathian forest for example.
Music written for fame/money etc I can't really respect...
Exactly as Lina mentioned Respect as music, no. Respect that someone had the smarts to market themselves and wind up rich as hell, yes.

what Hoserhellspawn said sums up my thoughts in some way
I have far more respect for the artists who are good at what they do and strive to produce original, complicated, emotional music than the entertainers who have people compose simple, formulaic songs to make money,
 
R-E-S-P-E-C-T, Find out what it means to me..

I use that word a lot when I talk about music, and since I have to listen to popular "rock" radio all day at work, I'm getting familiarized with the music that I'd been avoiding (and with good cause in many cases).

1) Most music nowadays isn't original at all. Everything has its direct influences, and the creative collaboration of the members makes a band into what it eventually becomes. So in effect, a real band should be more than the sum of its parts. When a band is essentially a clone of another (which usually indicates that it's either a new band, or one that had to copy another to become known), the music is cheapened in my opinion. If the band members were, despite being technically adept, incapable of injecting some of their own energy and soul into the music, then it's pretty much not valid in my book.

A band can sound like another, but any kind of exact copy is useless. Why not listen to the original, whose members toiled over their music. I'm getting all riled up now. Let's move along..

2) This question depends on genre. I listen to a lot of Tom Waits (who we'll use for this example). His music, despite being very original and extremely well made, in my humble opinion, is not technically difficult in many ways. Anyone with some blues experience should find the guitar simple enough, the piano relatively straightforward, and the lyrics easy enough to sing. Now, despite all this, the music is beautifully crafted and well produced. It doesn't sound cheap or easy, but its soul and originality more than make up for that. It doesn't NEED blazing solos or mounds of effects.

If musicianship is sloppy (which is rarely the case in any produced band) I might be a little hesitant to get into a band. I like technical ability, not necessarily virtuosity.

3) For music to be emotional, it must first cross the barrier at which we recognize it as simply "music." Once it has crossed that threshold in our ears and hearts, then it can become emotional to us. Occasionally, a band talented enough, emotional enough, will break that down upon first hearing, but usually it takes some time to sink in. If a band lacks technical ability and originality, I don't see how it COULD be emotional, unless perhaps by some fluke. The singer's voice could ignite a memory, the guitar could be exceptional for some reason.. This is a tough one because it's so personal. I don't let a lot of music in.. and when I do, it better damn well be good.

4)I can respect any music that's created with talent and integrity. The purpose becomes a personal matter for the listener. One person might find Britney to be a sad trollop put on display by rich perverts, when someone else might find her music deeply touching and emotional (though I worry about the state of our world when this is the case). A musician creates music for any number of reasons: entertainment of others, love of music, monetary reasons, outlet to become famous, etc..

I don't necessarily respect music written by a team of producers to be performed by a facade in order to lure young people into buying merchandise. In fact, I downright abhor that. I require artistic integrity in music.

5) Bands don't change for fans. They change for producers, for money (larger audience, fame, etc), or for self-evolutionary reasons. In the latter case, it's usually a decision with integrity, and doesn't compromise the band's talent. Fans may be displeased, but any band changing has to risk that.

Wow. I'm willing to bet my left nut that none of this makes sense. I'm so glad I'm out of school and never have to write another essay. I'm far too scatterbrained these days to have any cohesion to anything I write. Good thread though!!
 
Wow. I'm willing to bet my left nut that none of this makes sense.

Actually I feel I have to reply to your thoughts. That should prove your former notion false! So you can keep your nuts.

Your reply generated some thought within me when I reflected it upon what I said earlier. You are completely right when commenting upon Britney and the like that they are but crafted for the need of having new starlets. I personally do think the world would be better should music be given a different value, but as that is utopia I will give my idealism a rest and contemplate the subject from a more realistic point of view.

Britney Spears must enjoy singing and dancing, or so I should suppose based on what she actually does, and having great loads of cash. She probably has no desire to write prog-rock anthems with incredibly insightful lyrics. Max Martin, the songwriter, probably likes to write pop songs and challenge himself with making better and more catchy songs all the time. Meanwhile there are loads of people who adhere to the basic rule of pop music as listeners: stars come and go, music changes superficially all the time, and stars like Britney are necessitated by this demand that gives a variable to the everyday life of these people. Are we who do not adapt to this rule then entitled to disrespect those who make and listen to the music? I do not think so. It comes down to being a matter of taste, and that is something different. The pop music industry is rarely about artistic integrity or stunning ingeniosity, and therefore I do not hold it within the realm of 'serious' art. This leads to me not having it within my conception of respect for art as the whole business transcends to providing goods for consumers. (As of today music does not have the status it is worthy of, but that is a topic that deserves a separate thread for further debate. I will just say that if there is something that operates by means of art on a different field of respect there is an inevitable clash.) I do respect Britney for taking hold of her dreams and singing and dancing and making a living with it, and Max Martin for being economically smart enough for using his talent to generate a huge income. If they would, however, attempt at doing 'art' I would expect them to fail miserably and not have one bit of my respect for what they do since they would operate on a different level of respect. (I should also point out that some artists who sell well are also artistically respectable, however.)

As for copycat bands, I want to hold a border between those who copy bands for the sheer cause of getting chicks and selling more and those who loved the music enough to pay tribute by incorporating influences from the original band. Dimmu Borgir and Cradle of Filth certainly made a significant impact with their albums post-1996 and subsequently gave birth to a load of carbon copies. The division, as I see it, goes so that there are the ones who wanted to get on Nuclear Blast and get to pose with naked, bloodied goth girls with corpsepaint on their faces proclaiming the fall of Christ and the rise of Satan. And get well paid on the side. They lose the aspect of serious (interchangeable with honest) art when valuing something else. Then there are the ones who wanted to play like Dimmu for the plain cause that they went nuts over "Enthrone.." and see influences as a means of bettering their performance of their art. They do not necessarily lose the honesty in their music. This always happens to me when I hear a band that has great ideas in their music, but while I may wish to take influences from their music into mine, I do not do so to get their fans to buy my music but to make my music better than it was before.

So, in the end, it's about the artist's values, and while many musicians have values I would not like to see among the purveyors of an unfortunately deformed artform, that is what matters in the end. We just have to pick the ones that have values that we can relate to, as everyone on this board has done. We hold artistical honesty valuable. Those who like, for example, Britney Spears, much more likely hold music valuable only as products that facilitate their being from day to day. And reading backwards through my message, I think the same division exists among musical artists as well.

Wow. I'm willing to bet my left nut that none of this makes sense. I'm so glad I'm out of school and never have to write another essay. I'm far too scatterbrained these days to have any cohesion to anything I write.

You took the words right out of my mouth...except that I like writing essays.
 
After reading the insightful responses here, it occured to me that I have never really thought about music in terms of 'respect'. I just don't know how to apply this word to a concept like music, I cannot see 'respect' and 'music' occupying the same space.

I can love music, feel music, I can be interested in music, I can need music for some purpose, I can study music - but 'respect' is unimportant and mostly irrelevant for me.

I love music which has a vision - whether it's the artist's vision which is strong and dominating, or the music is stimulating and allows me to bring the emotional depth from my own mind, thus acting as a catalyst - my favourite music is always cohesive, with great importance given to details and musical "images". The bast music, just like the best movies or books, will show me the entrance to its world, and lead me (or let me find the way) to the core, where it will reveal all secrets - or reveal nothing, just give hints for me to speculate upon later; the path through that world may be straight and comprehensible, or it may be convoluted and irrational, even absurd. With the musical world, and the points where it matches my personal world, come thoughts and emotions. I love music which I can feel.

I'm interested in all music which I don't understand. When I hear potentially good music for the first time, I rarely "get" it instantly. I can't know whether I like it or hate it - I just don't understand. So I take the time until I do understand it finally, and then I can see if it's up to my tastes. The perfect example is the music of Olivier Messiaen. I "got" it only somewhere aroung the 5th-7th listen. Strangely enough, the same goes for Jeff Buckley. When the music has managed to keep my interest for a long period of time, I can choose to study and analyze it, and allow myself to be influenced. True originality never comes from ignorance, and I can't understand musicians who are afraid of studying music because the theory and knowledge may "kill the emotion and natural feeling". What a pile of bullshit. It's a great moment of pleasure for me, when I'm finally able to understand and know more, and know how to use new musical tools in my own work, also how to invent new possibilities using the acquired knowledge.

Yes, this does make sense. :)

D Mullholand
 
Originally posted by YaYoGakk
I tried to write this post before but i couldnt word it correctly so i gave up, so here is attempt number 2 :)

What things must be present for you to respect some music?
(eg, originality, technicallity, production, image, emotion, change, etc)

some questions to get you on the right track:
Can you respect music that isnt original if it is technically brilliant?
(eg. If a band comes along that are completely copying opeth but are doing it really well)
Can you respect music that isnt technically brilliant if it is original?
Is nothing important as long as the music is truely emotional?
Can you respect music that is written for money/fame reasons?
Or can you respect music that isnt emotional, but maybe has another purpose (such as dance music)?
Can you respect a band that changes because the fans want it to change?
etc..

whenever i ask questions im usually confusing :loco: , i wonder if this is the same.......

1. Yes. I can like a band if they're skilled players, that aren't completely original.
2. Rarely. Simple music bores the hell out of me.
3. I put emotion behind the actual music. So probably not.
4. I respect their ability to scam sheep out of money.
5. Yes. If a band is good I don't mind if their lyrics are comical or something, rather than serious.
6. No.
 
wow, you people really are a great intelligent bunch arent u?
i have much respect for all of you!
 
yup, we're all so goddamn clever that the brightness of our beings shines out of our asses :D
well that's why we're all here, ain't it? we could waste our time in some 3rd class chatroom and talk about thinks like A/S/L or we can use our brains in this 1st class forum. If you want to, you can talk thrash everywhere you want on the internet, but when it comes to pleasant, intelligent conversation, you really have to search for people sharing this intention. well, i finally have found... but that was another thread :D
 
Originally posted by YaYoGakk
Originality: When i heard opeth for the first time i'd heard the music id always longed for and been attempting to write (with complete failure on my part)... so after hearing opeth my music has been very Opeth influenced, i dont see this as a bad point because my music is still *me*. Influences are good. (eg Thales = good)

Same story here. Even if I managed to get my stuff together songwriting-wise largely because of Opeth, taking a few influences here and there because they are my favorite band, the moods I try to create with my music are 100% my own and come from the heart. Even while it may sometimes seem like the same of the surface, deep within there's always the essence of the song itself, independent of any style in music. You'd still hear it even if the song was played by a...ehm...swinging jazz band from the 40's or something. ;)

This is only because, when I heard them for the first time I had the exact same reaction - "oh my god, this is what my stuff should have always sounded like!" . Not exactly, of course, but for quite some time I've wanted to bring together metal and progressive guitar playing successfully.

Does this answer your question - I detest the neverending search for originality, because there's seemingly only a limited amount of musical styles that work well, but good melodies and ideas always come through and you can always create something new!