New smoking ban in Madison..

[avi]

meh, save your breath. you'll need it, you dirty smoker.

 

[mindspell]

also keep in mind that mindspell has defended the Canadian government's anti-free-speech laws.

You need to get your facts straight before we engage in that conversation again. Do some reading and then we'll talk.

 

[xfer]

dude i totally schooled you factswise during that conversation.

 

[mindspell]

Dude, it is not the Canadian government so right away your facts are wrong.

 

[xfer]

who is it then, some nuclear-armed Quebecoise separatist group!?

 

[FrostGiant]

I know a lot of bartenders and it is their choice to be a bartender. There are a lot of other jobs out there that require no experience and have similar pay. I don't like oridinances like this. What's next, banning smoking on the street cuz people aren't going to want to walk into the bar thru about 20 or 30 people out side having a cigarette. Of course these dicussions boil down into a smoker/non-smoker discussion always cuz usually the adamant non-smokers can't see that this is another loss of freedom while the smokers just want to have a cigarette while they drink. But like I said, have a referendum on it. If the city wants it done away with, fine. At least you voted. And I don't see this as public health as much as a workplace hazard. If anything OSHA should make the decision. Bar patrons won't get cancer from the little amount they are exposed to on the weekends.

 

[The Dope]

Growing up in the heart of tobacco-land, I'm definitely used to putting up with public smoking of all types. On family vacations I would always be bombarded with smoke from my dad's cigarettes once or twice an hour in the car, which I wasn't really fond of but tolerated without much complaint. In the last few years, though, some places started banning tobacco products, and I have really come to appreciate it. I remember back in high school when tobacco products were banned from school grounds, and suddenly I could go to football games without having to put up with that damn Indian-in-the-cowboy-hat who always managed to sit in front of me and had a perpetual cloud of cigar smoke around him. And it was kind of nice.

So while I have no problem at all with people choosing to smoke (I know how important it is to our economy, after all) I've definitely become fond of finding places that don't allow smoking, just because it allows me to have a break now and then. Still, I'm not the type of person who will base his decision solely upon whether a place allows smoking or not. It's just a nice surprise when a place turns out to be smoke-free.

 

[xfer]

i can't believe there are actually people who believe that smoking should NEVER be allowed in ANY BARS EVER PERIOD. that's fucked up.

 

[FrostGiant]

Well, there are some places I have no problem banning it. But in a bar is a weird one. That's what people do there. They go have some drinks and smoke some cigarettes. (And what about the cigar bars? You essentially just put them out of business.) Madison already had the restraunt smoking ban, which I agree with. It's quite disgusting eating next to someone that's smoking. But I just don't see what the issue is with the bars. That's what they are about. Drinking and smoking. If you don't like that atmosphere then I guess don't go. I don't go to coffee shops cuz I'm not a much of a fan of coffee and lesbians playing guitar, but you don't see me asking for a ban on lesbians playing guitar in coffee shops.

 

[xfer]

FREEEEEDOOOOOOMMMMM

x

 

[avi]

I'm all for designated smoking areas, such as outside in the freezing rain and snow. you fucks. drink your ale at home whiner.

 

[FrostGiant]

i can't believe there are actually people who believe that smoking should NEVER be allowed in ANY BARS EVER PERIOD. that's fucked up.

Well what it is is the non-smokers riding a popular trend to get the world more suited for themselves. It has nothing to do with health cuz second hand smoke isn't really a health issues when it comes to bar patrons. And usually they're the one's who want the change. Not the bar staff. Most bartenders tend to smoke and drink. That's why they became bartenders. So they can smoke and drink while they work. It's really about "what I want and screw the other guy" in Madison right now and the non-smokers won cuz it's a crazy liberal town.

 

[xfer]

FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM

x

 

[mindspell]

who is it then, some nuclear-armed Quebecoise separatist group!?

This is provincial territory. State government is not the United States government is it?

 

[xfer]

It's because Canadian law lacks free-speech protections that would extend across territorial/state lines.

 

[mindspell]

i can't believe there are actually people who believe that smoking should NEVER be allowed in ANY BARS EVER PERIOD. that's fucked up.

My opinion on the subject is the following: To let owners choose wehter or not their establishment is smoking or not is simply stupid because no owner wants to lose business and therefore will be smoking envirronment. Fact is that most people will not refrain from going somewhere because it is smoking, they will bear it while there.

That said, I like smoking areas. Again, to ask bars and restaurants to build those is often times not feasible (small restaurant or weird space divisions not allowing it without asphyxiating (sp?) a patron or two). I hate coming back home after a night on the town and smelling like crap but I can bear it because bars are made for that, drinking, smoking, partying. Restaurants on the other hand have no reason to be smoking, most smokers only smoke with their coffee at the end of the meal and that they can do outside. Coffee shops do present another problem, smoking areas there should do the trick but logistically could close a lot of them.

I just don't like to be imposed something that everybody can do without, especially when it is beneficiary to everybody's health.

 

[mindspell]

It's because Canadian law lacks free-speech protections that would extend across territorial/state lines.

Language laws are peculiar in Canada. Something that will happen to the US pretty soon I expect, some grumbling is already happenning. Note also that I did not endorse anything but simply state that you were making a mountain out of a mole and basically calling French speaking Canadians (of all origins) Nazis because of a wish to retain some kind of identity.

 

[xfer]

the fact that you think the owner will necessarily lose too much business to survive is wrong. especially what if there were tax breaks to cover a downswing in business like i suggested for being a non-smoking bar?

restaurants are different. we're talking bars.

and keep in mind that even if a smoking area were in a hermetically sealed room placed 1000 feet from the bar, it would be DISALLOWED under these laws. it is NOT a matter of "most places can't afford to build smoking areas". They're not allowed to even if it wouldn't infringe on the nonsmoking areas.

i prefer non-smoking bars, but i think it is very bad to impose one's PREFERENCE on others just because you PREFER it.

 

[xfer]

Oh, you're mixing up two conversations. I had been referring DIRECTLY to Nazis and I'm speaking of the Zundel Holocaust-denying trial. But I stand by my French Nazi thing, too, and I am opposed to the US government taking similar steps (requiring immigrant-neighbourhood shop signs to be in giant english letters, for example).

 

[mindspell]

Sure, tax breaks could be nice but if they do not cover the loss then it doesn't work. Apart from the hardcore, most business owner are there for profits. Accepting losing money is not exactly a sound business policy.

What I am trying to say is that disallowing everything would be nice for me but not exactly fair for smoker, hence the fact that I said that I would bear smoking in bars. I think smoking areas are the way to go to keep everybody happy but as I said would be mostly logistically nightmarish for a lot of bars/dance clubs. Dance floors should be smoke free everywhere, nothing worse than getting burned by an asshole who can't hold a cig properly...