Additions to the home studio.

[Viral_Tyler]

I'm wanting to upgrade more of my home studio, the issues at hand are two things.

One, I have no bass guitar available.

Two, I have solid-state preamp's in my 14 channel interface (Tascam US1800). I don't like how my drums sound through them, tuned and played well even.


So I'm looking at this Peavey bass guitar. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Mill5BXPTig/

The last bass player for my metal / punk band that I drum for used the 4 string version of this bass through an ampeg combo, it sounded awesome. We recorded him on our demo using the DI from his amp, and recorded him for the album using a Line6 UX1, we did that for the guitar as well and I thought it sounded really good.

And looking at this Soundcraft mixer. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EFX12/

The church I work for uses a Soundcraft mixer, and our sound engineer says he is very fond of Soundcraft. So I trust him lol.

Would this mixer work properly if I plugged the two XLR outs into my interface, and using the headphone out on the interface going to my headphone amplifier? If so, and there is no latency.. it would be magic for me.

 

[DavePiatek]

You should be able to get a good drum sound out of pretty much any preamp, as long as they're tuned/played well and the mic/mic techniques you're using are genre-appropriate. The preamp doesn't make as much of a difference as some will have you believe. Yes, there are differences, but they're subtle, and at the price point you're talking about, might not exist at all.

You should instead explore spending the money you'd spend on the soundcraft on filling holes in your mic locker. What mics are you currently using for your drums?

 

[Sloan]

Weird, I just traded a 4-string bass for that exact peavey model yesterday. Seems like a solid bass but I haven't put new strings on and actually heard it yet. All you need for a good bass track is a good DI, then you can do whatever you need after it's tracked. Having a 5-string around for metal stuff is a great idea.

I would ditch the mixer idea, like posted above - don't bother worrying about preamp sound quality right now, save that for when your making a really good living with your studio (seriously). It looks like the Tascam you use only has 8 xlr inputs, which is a great start. Having another one of those to total 16 xlr inputs will give you more flexibility with mic'ing a kit - you can put up extra mics and choose what you like the best or choose not to use those tracks at all if they don't fit the song (ex: ambient/room mics for example).

Investing in mics, also posted above is always a good idea since you will most likely use them your entire 'career' (lol, rite?). Here is my suggestion for drum mics on a budget:

KICK - Audix D6/Shure Beta 52
SNARE - Shure SM57, Audix i5, Shure Beta 57
HAT - (Whatever, just turn it up loud so drummer hits hats softer...)
TOMS - Audix i5 (often found used cheaper than SM57's)
OH -MXL603s (super duper cheap and workable, but bright)
Room - I have experimented with the Nady RSM-4 ribbons, got them for like $70 and they work fine. I also like to throw one of these on guitars if tracking live, they really go good as something extra to blend with a 57.


Also, some quality amps and cabinet are a must for me, unless you want to just get other dudes to reamp your DI's. You can get some good deals on amps if you keep an eye out on craigslist etc... buy a whole half stack and sell the cab if it's not a mesa to recoup some cost etc...

 

[DavePiatek]

Weird, I just traded a 4-string bass for that exact peavey model yesterday. Seems like a solid bass but I haven't put new strings on and actually heard it yet. All you need for a good bass track is a good DI, then you can do whatever you need after it's tracked. Having a 5-string around for metal stuff is a great idea.

I would ditch the mixer idea, like posted above - don't bother worrying about preamp sound quality right now, save that for when your making a really good living with your studio (seriously). It looks like the Tascam you use only has 8 xlr inputs, which is a great start. Having another one of those to total 16 xlr inputs will give you more flexibility with mic'ing a kit - you can put up extra mics and choose what you like the best or choose not to use those tracks at all if they don't fit the song (ex: ambient/room mics for example).

Investing in mics, also posted above is always a good idea since you will most likely use them your entire 'career' (lol, rite?). Here is my suggestion for drum mics on a budget:

KICK - Audix D6/Shure Beta 52
SNARE - Shure SM57, Audix i5, Shure Beta 57
HAT - (Whatever, just turn it up loud so drummer hits hats softer...)
TOMS - Audix i5 (often found used cheaper than SM57's)
OH -MXL603s (super duper cheap and workable, but bright)
Room - I have experimented with the Nady RSM-4 ribbons, got them for like $70 and they work fine. I also like to throw one of these on guitars if tracking live, they really go good as something extra to blend with a 57.


Also, some quality amps and cabinet are a must for me, unless you want to just get other dudes to reamp your DI's. You can get some good deals on amps if you keep an eye out on craigslist etc... buy a whole half stack and sell the cab if it's not a mesa to recoup some cost etc...

Clevelands of the world, UNITE!

 

[Sloan]

haha!

 

[Viral_Tyler]

For sure, I'm just having a really hard time finding the right sound, I also have EZdrummer and Drumagog to help out when needed.

I also have a DrumDial that helps with the tuning. I usually go 74 on all tom heads and tune each head to the most occurring harmonic per lug on that head.

I don't even know what I'm doing on the snare to be honest. I'm putting the top head anywhere from 85-90, and the bottom head anywhere from 70-75.

The kick I'm just replacing, I think that there are better kick samples I could use in my drumgog than I could produce with my equipment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My current mic kit is:

4 - Shure sm57's
1 - Audix i5
1 - Audix d6
2 - Karma K10's (overheads, no pad, no roll-off)
2 - MXL v63m LDC's
1 - Sennheiser e822s
4 - Shure pg56's

Last four projects I've used Evans heads. I used Genera Resonants on bottom for each tom and a Hazy 300 for the snare. On the tom batter-side I tryed Hydraulic Clear, G2 Clear, EC2, and G2 Coated; on the snare I tryed G2 Coated, HD Dry, Genera Dry, and an ST Dry.

My biggest issue is getting the right shell sounds. My current cymbals are the cheap Zildjian ZBT Rock series, I actually like how they sound to hear when hit and when I play with my hardcore band live. Hearing the entire kit live through the system, it sounded awesome, they just used Audix gear except for the snare mic which was a sm57, usual case. 1-D6 / 1-D4 / 2-D2's.

 

[Sloan]

At least your experimenting trying new things, that's awesome. You should def be able to produce something usable with those mics I would think. Do you have any clips you could share?

 

[MatrixClaw]

What drums are you using? Honestly, to me it just sounds like you don't know how to mic them properly for the sound you want (not a big deal, few people know how to do it correctly). What struck me as funny though is you say in the first post your drums are tuned properly, then later you admit to not knowing what you're doing. Tuning drums is an art, if you don't know how to do it properly, the drum dial really won't help. Find a pro who will tune it for you, make note of the heads and measure the tuning with the drumdial after that, then if you replace heads again, you'll have a better idea of where you should be. You really just need to keep experimenting, though.

However, I'll disagree with the others on the interface, the US series has very noisy preamps and terrible DIs, if you have the money, an upgrade may be very beneficial.

 

[infectdsniper]

try the evens reverse dot on snare batter. sounds great. but watch tuning videos and make everything sound awesome. if its not a good kit it wont sound good. post a clip of whatever you want to improve so people can help more. maybe even raws of all the mics on some drums.

iv heard that about US series as well. i use profires2626s and they are great for the price. might wanna check them out. i would avoid a cheap analog mixer though

 

[Viral_Tyler]

Lol.. I'm sorry, this is my band before it went hardcore, it is kind of pop punk. But this is really the only live track we've recorded that is worth anything.



Here is the rest of the demo: https://soundcloud.com/theburningdaylight/sets/haddonfield-a-d-demo-2012-1

Sorry if it sucks lol, I'm still a noob at recording drums, which is the usually the fundamental of every song.

This demo was done with the EC2 tom heads, and HD Dry snare.

(forgot to mention I replaced my default snare wires with a better d'addario one, Vinne Paul uses this according to Evans.

I had a few things in this mix (Brom Bones) that I would change, now that I'm listening to it again lol.

Snare's reverb is a little too loud.

Bottom snare mic is too present.

Overheads aren't loud enough, or compressed enough.

Toms sounded ok. Only issue was... lol... The mics or toms were moved accidentally, they don't sound the same on any other track on the demo. The toms either sound thin, or out of phase; what my band mates call "old school".

By the way I'm playing drums for this band, so criticize me at will lol.

Since this demo I've gotten a lot tighter as a drummer. I've only been playing for 2 years off and on. I would rather be screaming for a deathcore or metalcore band. I've also been playing guitar for 13 years. Piano, even longer, I lost track, I think age 5 or 6..

Any tips would be appreciated.

The next album is pretty much done, we used EZdrummer to make is "EZ" on my behalf. Having a full-time job, family, band, and recording an album is rough. No wonder professional full-time producers charge so much.

 

[Viral_Tyler]

What drums are you using? Honestly, to me it just sounds like you don't know how to mic them properly for the sound you want (not a big deal, few people know how to do it correctly). What struck me as funny though is you say in the first post your drums are tuned properly, then later you admit to not knowing what you're doing. Tuning drums is an art, if you don't know how to do it properly, the drum dial really won't help. Find a pro who will tune it for you, make note of the heads and measure the tuning with the drumdial after that, then if you replace heads again, you'll have a better idea of where you should be. You really just need to keep experimenting, though.

However, I'll disagree with the others on the interface, the US series has very noisy preamps and terrible DIs, if you have the money, an upgrade may be very beneficial.

Lol sorry man.. I've been drinking wine the last few days. I can tune my toms to where I really dig 'em. The kick is being replaced completely, so I guess that one doesn't matter too much. The snare... I'm having a really hard time with. Maybe its the micing, because I watch us play our concerts(through a camera with a stereo condenser mic) and everything sounds so legit to me.

My bands first show - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKewZTnJv1s

Your are correct though, I am a novice, and I need to keep working with my gear.

 

[DavePiatek]

You should definitely be able to get good sounds out of those mics. Your best bet might be to invest in a TuneBot. That makes tuning drums WAY simpler than a Drum Dial. I recommend tuning resonant heads to a major 3rd above the fundamental, which is VERY easy to do with the TuneBot. That way they ring together in much the same way that strings on a guitar do when you strike a chord.

You'll probably have to notch some nasty frequencies out of your cymbals. Those ZBTs always have some weird "singing" happening. The other thing to do is to get good at drum editing / tightening. Having tight drums, especially with hardcore/metal is going to go a long way towards giving you that "pro" sound.

I don't know if you're on Pro Tools, but if you are check this out:

 

[Viral_Tyler]

You should definitely be able to get good sounds out of those mics. Your best bet might be to invest in a TuneBot. That makes tuning drums WAY simpler than a Drum Dial. I recommend tuning resonant heads to a major 3rd above the fundamental, which is VERY easy to do with the TuneBot. That way they ring together in much the same way that strings on a guitar do when you strike a chord.

You'll probably have to notch some nasty frequencies out of your cymbals. Those ZBTs always have some weird "singing" happening. The other thing to do is to get good at drum editing / tightening. Having tight drums, especially with hardcore/metal is going to go a long way towards giving you that "pro" sound.

I don't know if you're on Pro Tools, but if you are check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgIbgaV9Xeg

Really?.. Thats amazing, I've gotta invest in that.

I actually either use FL Studio for vocals, bass, and guitar.

The drums I've just used Reaper. It was always less toll on the CPU when recording and adding effects and plugins like drumagog.

Yes, I've noticed the ZBT cymbals having a higher and bigger bell on all cymbals, especially the 14" hi-hat.. good thing I traded my rock zbt 14"
for a regular zbt that is 13". that 14" was loud man, and I mean ear piercing. ^^

I'm still trying to find a frequency that will work well to reduce the harshness of those cymbals, its rather difficult to do without killing its tone, I'm guessing you have to sacrifice one thing for another a lot in this game lol.

 

[Sloan]

I have honestly heard far, far worse demos in my time. The thing that sticks out the most to me is the one mono guitar in the center. I bet if you mute that guitar it would clear up the mix and sound at least 50% better. You need to have two guitar takes panned hard L & R to leave space up the middle for kick, snare, bass, vocals (these are the most important elements). Your rhythm guitars, overheads, and ambiance (reverb) will fill up the sides.

I think you just need more practice recording drums, there is no shortcut to getting good sounds, you have to develop an ear for them and then learn how to get the most of what you have available. It takes years of experience and fuck ups. I'm still making shitty sounding stuff right now, but when I look back on stuff from a few years ago, it sounds great in comparison...

Also, you can edit drums very easily in Reaper, search for 'slip editing' tutorials - it's been discussed here a shit ton. If you haven't done so yet, use the Sneap Search to search these forums...there are a few drum guides from years back and lots of posts about processing drums etc...

http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=007593470310830667409:4qw46y8lnza

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

Good info from Dave and Sloan..

The only thing bothering me is the notion of "Just track the di and do what you want afterwards"

Why not just track it the way it's supposed to sound? Why postpone the decisions to mix time? Are you gonna decide how the record should sound AFTER you've track'd it? That doesn't really make sense now does it..?

If you don't know what the drums are gonna sound like, how can you know what the bass should sound like? If you don't have the base of your tracks sorted out, how the hell are you supposed to know what the guitars are supposed to sound like.

Of course, DI, reamping and such things can be of great valua in shit-hits-the-fan-situations, but I'd never consider them as a my-go-to standard practise.

To me it just would seem smarter to just track so that you end up with an actual song, and not 40 tracks of second guessing and approximations of what the song could possibly sound like.

On an OT notion, cheers Dave about the Room Sound samples. Stellar job, bought the whole bundle.

Edit: Not directed to you Sloan or the OP.. I just have tendency to rant in third person.

 

[RedDog]

^Reamping saves time in the studio. You need a guitarist there to help you actually get tones from the amp. In the case of reamping, you can get a far superior sound when you're not "on the clock" and workflow is much better. In many studio's case, it's just as easy to send off for reamps as it is to track a tone in-house. that way you have access to virtually limitless tonal choices. And it sounds good in the portfolio.

 

[Sloan]

^Reamping saves time in the studio. You need a guitarist there to help you actually get tones from the amp. In the case of reamping, you can get a far superior sound when you're not "on the clock" and workflow is much better.

It also gets the bass player out of the studio faster so I can start redoing the tracks myself...

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

^Reamping saves time in the studio. You need a guitarist there to help you actually get tones from the amp. In the case of reamping, you can get a far superior sound when you're not "on the clock" and workflow is much better. In many studio's case, it's just as easy to send off for reamps as it is to track a tone in-house. that way you have access to virtually limitless tonal choices. And it sounds good in the portfolio.

Yep.. Drum sampling, reamping etc provide us with endless amounts of choises, possibilities, unique textures and opportunities..

So, where the hell are they? Because I shure as fuck haven't heard any in years..

 

[RedDog]

Yep.. Drum sampling, reamping etc provide us with endless amounts of choises, possibilities, unique textures and opportunities..

So, where the hell are they? Because I shure as fuck haven't heard any in years..

You might try jazz fusion. Metal obviously isn't your deal if you can't hear the difference.

 

[DavePiatek]

I'm still trying to find a frequency that will work well to reduce the harshness of those cymbals, its rather difficult to do without killing its tone, I'm guessing you have to sacrifice one thing for another a lot in this game lol.

Your best bet is going to be to use seek-and-destroy EQ with multiple EQ bands and a VERY narrow Q. Here's what you do: Get whatever EQ plug you have and put it on your OH track. Set the Q to the narrowest curve. Boost as far as your eq will let you. Now solo your OHs. Sweep the EQ around until you find the spots that sound really whistle-y/bad. When you find them, take the EQ and reverse it; turn the gain down as far as it will go. Repeat until you get all the terrible resonances in your cymbals.