amateurs/professionals

[Nuno Filipe]

I have been going deeper and deeper into mixing side of things and I have noticed that there are a few things that clearly divides the amateurs from pros.
Things that in my opinion we only learn well as the years go by with a lot of practice, learning and hearing from other professionals in the area.

So to me, where I really hear the differences are in:

1 - Compression
2 - Low end
3 - The use of delay/reverb, especially on vocals.

Compression it´s one of the first things that comes to my mind, I could talk alot about this but just how to use well the parameters like attack/release ratio/threshold it´s just not something that we can learn from one day to another, years can pass without mastering the use of compression.

Low end, one of the most evident factors that allow us to recognize a pro mix. That controled, sometimes huge, defined yet clear low end. Another one that can make our head spin in frustration before we get there.

Reverb/delay, this one I didnt noticed long ago but now that I hear a lot of other musical styles it´s quite easy to distinguish how it can improve a mix. It´s not very frequent to hear a huge vocal processing in Metal but rock or electronic music its very common. That sense of space, how the reverb blends with the delay, the clarity of the voice, adding the ambience needed for the expression of the song. Now this last one, it´s more about the mixer taste and vision than other else. But IMO it takes a lot of skill to push a vocal track to other level with the right amount of fx.

What about you guys, what factors you think that separate the amateur level from pro?

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

I think you're sorta hollywooding it out. I've seen people paying obzene amounts of cash and get shit handed back.. And I know lot of really talented folk who're not making shit even though they're awesome.

You just need to be in the right place in right time. When you have your foot on the door, I takes off naturally. A pro is a guy who gets payed to do the job. Amateur does the other way around. Naturally people getting paid need to do something, or many things correct.

E: But if we leave semantics aside, I believe the only thing that matters / separates is taste. The maturity to know, what the track in hand needs. Knowing a bunch of magic tricks won't take you anywhere if you don't have the fundamental and artistical maturity in music / art.

Though, a crap-ton of awesome gear has never hurt anyone.

E II: Those things you mentioned do also greatly come down to gear (or more so enviroments), even though it sounds like a cop-out. Monitoring enviroment affects all those things you mentioned + plus everything else. Compression etc all the nuances seem to be little clearer when you work in a pro facility with exceptional monitoring. Pro engineers rarely work in their bedroom with the cheapest Adam-line and an Mbox.

It also doesn't hurt if you've got 20k€ in your channel insert. Adding sizzle and BOOM seems little easier with 3000€ passive design than a DAW-stock-eq. No, It doesn't make you a pro. Buying a great camera doesn't make you a photographer. But anyone who says it doesn't help is a moron.

It's kinda like when I (or anyone) started in live sound. Shitty venues, with shitty bands, shitty gear and me no better. You had to work your ass off for it to sound like something else than shit. Offen failing miserably. Then you went to 'real shows' and wondered why was everything so much more awesome..?

And after years and years of gigging, naturally I can make a band sound better then a rookie in any situation at any day, because I have the know-how and more mature taste, which he'll also have by time.. But I don't work in that state anymore. When I have a great band, a great venue, great PA with a great board.. Suddenly making everything just go BOOM and sound fucking awesome is not such a challenge anymore.. Just push the faders up, listen and tweak a bit. I do less these days then I ever did when I was younger. It's not about magic tricks. It's about taste.

Same thing applies in the studio.. As a amateur, in a 'home studio', all your energy is wasted in the shortcomings of your circumstances. Your fighting an uphill battle all the way to the end. Something you don't have to do in pro facility.

 

[Vicioushead]

From my perspective, professionals just have a knack for creating and balancing sounds. They just understand what changing parameters, EQ and so on will do to the sound and will understand how this affects the overall picture.

I think amateurs like myself just fumble around from one aspect of the production to another, hoping to craft something that gels rather than *knowing* what'll get it to a top level.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

I think you're sorta hollywooding it out. I've seen people paying obzene amounts of cash and get shit handed back.. And I know lot of really talented folk who're not making shit even though they're awesome.

That´s another subject. Of course there are the called pros that sound like amateurs but I am talking about pros that sound like pros, so you are taking the topic to other side. I am just naming some inerent aspects that divides the amateur level from pro. Doing some sturgis kinda mix with a really good sound doesnt mean necessarily that someone is already on a pro level.

 

[Heabow]

Although I agree with pretty everything you said Nuno, I'd add 'the artisic side' of the job. I think a pro is able to catch the essence of the personality of the band/artist and will bring something unique yet "classic" to the song. To me, it's beyond the quality of the sound or the way he uses comp, reverbs... even if these technical aspects are crucial of course.

 

[Nuno Filipe]

Although I agree with pretty everything you said Nuno, I'd add 'the artisic side' of the job. I think a pro is able to catch the essence of the personality of the band/artist and will bring something unique yet "classic" to the song. To me, it's beyond the quality of the sound or the way he uses comp, reverbs... even if these technical aspects are crucial of course.

Yeah, you are right. There are people that already have a vision of how a band must sound even before recording them. It´s lot easy to mix when you have in mind what kind of sound you want to achieve.

But even the use of the compression, processing the low end requires a creative approach. The way you can use a reverb/delay even more because adding the ambience needed it´s like the makeup, it´s icing on the cake. It´s here where we can add something with a touch of our personality. So, I agree that the creativity it´s essential to raise the level.

 

[Alphanumeric]

What about you guys, what factors you think that separate the amateur level from pro?

Automation. This is really how dedicated you are, or conversely, how much time you have. People that do this as a hobby have all the time in the world to automate stuff, however pro guys will be much quicker and more motivated to, apples and oranges maybe.

A lot of amateurs won't automate at all, maybe for a specific volume effect they will, but not for other stuff.

I'm at a mid level where I automate the volume for the whole track, like riding a fader, going through all the snare hits, toms, fills, bass, guitars, vocals, I don't with the kick for some reason.

Automate pan for effects, and effects for what they are needed for, or eq for an effect. Is as far as I go for automating other things.

But the best guys automate eq, compression, the effects all the way through the track. Lots of work.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Professionals:

1. Communicate what they want effectively.
2. Know how to get from A to B quickly and in the most effective way.
3. Label their tracks, DAMN IT THEY LABEL THEIR FUCKING TRACKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Start at the source: and the source always rocks.
5. Are willing to put in the work needed to get it there (or outsource it).
6. Are original with their mixes.
7. Are the ones teaching effective techniques in forums, not asking questions.
8. Are willing to invest the time to learn and do what is necessary to become better.

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

.But the best guys automate eq, compression, the effects all the way through the track. Lots of work.

I think one difference is the mind-set of doing stuff. Lots of amateurs and mid level players often claim that the 'pro sound' comes from extensive labour or complicated techniques or exceptional gear etc. Basically the premise is always that you need to do shit-ton of stuff in order for it to sound like a pro, when the reality is that pro's just do the same routine processing (some eq, compression reverb, you name it) that everyone else does. They just do it better. That's the point. The are just plain better than the guys starting out. No magic bullet or game changing techniques. Just skill.

The whole premise of 'more work and time = more pro sound' is just plain flawed. Personally I think the whole mentality of 'I need to do this and that because that's what separates the pros and amateurs' is a destructive and non-helpfull way of looking at things.

E: It's really hard for me to imagine Collin Richardson jumping around the listening room with an army of trainees, adjusting on the fly a wall of hardware comps and eq's as they print the mix. I might be full of shit, but that's a mental image one can think when claiming that automation is the key to a pro sound.

 

[anotherpaul]

The whole premise of 'more work and time = more pro sound' is just plain flawed.

This. Top level pro guys like CLA mix REALLY fast. Knowing exactly what they want the song to sound like and exactly what needs to be done to achieve it is what separates pros from noobs.

 

[egan.]

This. Top level pro guys like CLA mix REALLY fast. Knowing exactly what they want the song to sound like and exactly what needs to be done to achieve it is what separates pros from noobs.

Lets be clear that CLA has guys putting in the work that allows him to fly. Not to detract from his skill but many of us would benefit from having a great engineer sorting, editing, sample replacing, summing and prepping our tracks. His stuff is submixed and placed on the same board channels for every mix before he even starts.
That said, I agree.
I'm often surprised by the guys here who swear by 9 comps and 12 eq's on a single track while many of our favorites are only using their console eq/comp.

 

[Line666]

Lets be clear that CLA has guys putting in the work that allows him to fly. Not to detract from his skill but many of us would benefit from having a great engineer sorting, editing, sample replacing, summing and prepping our tracks. His stuff is submixed and placed on the same board channels for every mix before he even starts.

Definitely, I think that coming into work at that level and not having to build things from the start gives a better perspective of what really needs to go into something for its overall development rather than getting caught in the abstractions and nitpicking that come from seeing a project from the ground up to completion.

 

[Marcolobo]

It's a hard one, but i think that the keys are still the skills. I've seen a great mixing engineer working on a song, he only used analog gear. For everything. And the mastering engineer, used analog gear as well. They gave me an audio file to listen to it in my place.
I decided to not hear it 'til the next day ('cause, you know, tired ears) and... when i pressed play, it was just plain crap.
The problem was on the raw tracks, they were recorded awfully. Even if the performance of every instrument was fine, the quality of those audio files was horrible. Everything was clipped, every DI track sounded like some nuclear thing was happening inside the file. The whole song was recorded at home, and the guys of the band that made the recordings, didn't know one single thing about audio besides that they can record at home with some USB "thing".
Here is something i think it's very important: before pressing "Rec", there's a lot of things to do. And most of us, forget that.
I really think that this is art, but the "pro's" see this as a business, i don't think they see a band and for some reason they already know what they have to do. Yes, those people worked their ass to be there and be paid, but a lot of them are just technical people, they drag the files, see the style, work for it. The only thing that's left, at least in my opinion, it's keep practicing. A lot.

 

[Alphanumeric]

army of trainees

Yeah, the guys and assistants doing all the editing for him. Same with CLA, Pensado or whatever, they all have their extreme edits or some of the higher up guys, doing some automation done for them.

Automation doesn't make a pro record you are right. Everything that makes a pro sound is composed of several smaller things all done right.

But amateurs simply don't do anything, some may not even know what automation is, others too lazy, or others not skilled enough to realise that your kinda meant to mess about with dat volume fader, the sort of people that think a compressor solves everything.

 

[SoundsLikeFog]

But amateurs simply don't do anything, some may not even know what automation is, others too lazy, or others not skilled enough to realise that your kinda meant to mess about with dat volume fader, the sort of people that think a compressor solves everything.

I was merely pointing out that it's a pretty gargantuan leap from saying that 'you must use volume automation to create excitement' to claiming 'the pros automate everything, eq, compressor and reverbs'.

Those two things are wildly different.. Other one is a solid advice and the other one's just not true.

 

[Loren Littlejohn]

Wait, are we only talking mix engineers?