Amp biasing question... 5150 bias to run at half power? Recommended or ok to do?

[lolzgreg]

Andy Sneap gets amazing guitar tones.

Andy Sneap uses a stock 6505.

Andy Sneap said he records guitars slightly below rehearsal volumes.

Don't waste your time pulling tubes. Leave the amp alone, turn the volume up until you're happy, and you're done. Modern amps don't sound good with power tube distortion.

 

[Virgil.]

Thanks for the input and suggestions fellas!

I ended up removing 2 power tubes tonight and changed to 4ohm and there wasn't really any volume difference whatsoever. None that I could hear anyways. I needed to re-tube it anyway, so I'm gonna leave those 2 out until the new tubes arrive in the mail anyway.

 

[rispsira]

I know what youre saying man i temporarily brought my 5150 home cause fiddling at home is so much nicer than in a rehearsal room because its.. home.
Anyway i noticed that at home volume on 2 is pretty louuuuud (didnt really notice it that much in the rehearsal room logically). Andy uses it on 3 to track i think? that's really loud haha (unless my memory fails). anyway regardless i just dropped in to tell you that i used my hotplate and i have to tell you it DOES change the tone quite a bit especially below -4 db and -4db reduction aint much. Also i would think that an acceptable home volume would be with the master a bit below 2 and a -8db reduction in the hotplate, but the tone is just not the same.

Cool think about the amp though is that it handles low volumes pretty well; with the volume just a TINY bit above 1 you could get a good sound but of course you need to change your settings and they wont be the same as rehearsal volumes.

Also a lot of people have been saying that modern amps like the recto and 5150 which both rely on preamp for the sound can be dealt with at low volumes and they are mostly right though i do like to add that the 5150 more so than the recto (still a big difference i think) the recto needs a bit more volume imo

gluck!

 

[TheWinterSnow]

The master volume control is in and among itself a simple L-pad that is adjustable. On the 5150, even at low MV setting, it's already letting a high enough signal through to drive the power section pretty hard.

What would be cool is if they made high impedance "speaker" L-Pads so that the load to the preamp could be maintained while the output to the power tubes could be controlled. That would help keep the preamp reacting as if the amp was cranked a lot more at lower volumes.

Andy Sneap gets amazing guitar tones.

Andy Sneap uses a stock 6505.

Andy Sneap said he records guitars slightly below rehearsal volumes.

Don't waste your time pulling tubes. Leave the amp alone, turn the volume up until you're happy, and you're done. Modern amps don't sound good with power tube distortion.

They may not sound good with saturation but there is an effect between the preamp and power amp, tube sag (created by pulling more current in the OT), so the preamp will actually change tonalities depending on where you have the MV set to, this is one of the many components that require tube amps to be turned up or at least not sound too hot when played at bedroom volumes.

I know what youre saying man i temporarily brought my 5150 home cause fiddling at home is so much nicer than in a rehearsal room because its.. home.
Anyway i noticed that at home volume on 2 is pretty louuuuud (didnt really notice it that much in the rehearsal room logically). Andy uses it on 3 to track i think? that's really loud haha (unless my memory fails). anyway regardless i just dropped in to tell you that i used my hotplate and i have to tell you it DOES change the tone quite a bit especially below -4 db and -4db reduction aint much. Also i would think that an acceptable home volume would be with the master a bit below 2 and a -8db reduction in the hotplate, but the tone is just not the same.

Cool think about the amp though is that it handles low volumes pretty well; with the volume just a TINY bit above 1 you could get a good sound but of course you need to change your settings and they wont be the same as rehearsal volumes.

Also a lot of people have been saying that modern amps like the recto and 5150 which both rely on preamp for the sound can be dealt with at low volumes and they are mostly right though i do like to add that the 5150 more so than the recto (still a big difference i think) the recto needs a bit more volume imo

gluck!

yes 5150s can sound good at low volumes because as you said, the preamp distortion makes up most of the tone, but they still sound better when cranked somewhat, mostly from the things I mentioned before, the loading down of the preamp by having low MV settings has a 2nd to 3rd order transition, increasing current in the power section also induces sag which transitions harmonics from 3rd order to second order. The result is that when an amp is cranked up to full volume, the tone shifts in favor of 2nd order harmonics, becomes compressive and sounds more "overdriven", even if the power section is not clipping. This is why for a 5150 the optimum recording volume is around 3 and is because that is where the MV is when the power section is becoming slightly compressible and on the verge of clipping. I can also say that by pulling two tubes you reduce the current ion the OT in return reducing sag which in return make the tone less compressed, more 3rd order harmonics which prevents you from getting that "driven" sound (again even if you aren't clipping the power tubes).

kinda on a tangent here but, I think that the 5150 could do without the FX loop recovery stage, that would make the MV more useful and would allow for a more driven preamp sound with lower physical volumes (*head begins spinning* possible idea for my amp).

I am going too into detail now...I will shut the fuck up.

 

[MatrixClaw]

Just curious, who is your tech? I know you live in AZ, so I can recommend a great one that is cheap, knows his stuff, and has a very fast turnaround

 

[rispsira]

Thewintersnow you are absolutely right man i guess i wanted to say that but forgot so to make it clear again what you said: you CAN get good 5150 tones at low volumes but if you push the poweramp a bit it just sounds better. Besides what we are talking about is a volume around 3! 3 out of ten! not like were saying it needs to clips the powersection!

Anyway great info thank you

EDIT: great info doesnt mean i understood all of it by the way hahahaha. But its something to research when i have time!

 

[Virgil.]

Just curious, who is your tech? I know you live in AZ, so I can recommend a great one that is cheap, knows his stuff, and has a very fast turnaround

I actually called mtroniks in downtown mesa across the street from milano's.

PM me with the contact info for your guy

 

[greyskull]

quite tempted to put an L-pad on a pull out switch on the master volume of a lot of my amps. genius concept.

 

[Wolfeman]

quite tempted to put an L-pad on a pull out switch on the master volume of a lot of my amps. genius concept.

It's a great mod to do. Doesn't really affect the tone much from what I can tell, as long as you go easy on the resistor values.

It's nice to have that 0-3 range on the MV turn into the whole range of the MV.

 

[Genius Gone Insane]

You guys keep talking about volume like it's important only for the amp. The volume is for the cab as much as for the amp. You can't really hear the cab without volume.

 

[MetalJonesy]

i'm interested on the L pad idea that greyskull has, and you Eric have stated

 

[TheWinterSnow]

Am I the only one thinking that you would have better results by using a fet based variable voltage regulator on the HT+? Like the DPR feature on select Blackstars.

 

[Wolfeman]

I think what most are looking for here is keeping the lower volume sound, but being able to have more control over it, instead of just having the master volume go from off to loud as hell before you even get to 2 on the control.

 

[Virgil.]

I think what most are looking for here is keeping the lower volume sound, but being able to have more control over it, instead of just having the master volume go from off to loud as hell before you even get to 2 on the control.

Yup!

 

[TheWinterSnow]

I think what most are looking for here is keeping the lower volume sound, but being able to have more control over it, instead of just having the master volume go from off to loud as hell before you even get to 2 on the control.

exactly, A VVR would not only make the MV more usable at bedroom volumes, but would also allow you to get massive amounts powertube saturation with the amp no louder than conversation. Like I said, I played a blackstar with that feature and with extreme VVR settings, the volume midly swells and then after the 9 o'clock position doesn't get any louder, you just hear the power tube compression begin to take place, then if you want more volume, back off on the extreme VVR settings.

 

[MatrixClaw]

I actually called mtroniks in downtown mesa across the street from milano's.

PM me with the contact info for your guy

Ah, mtroniks is ok, but they take FOREVER to get stuff done. PMing ya now

 

[Wolfeman]

exactly, A VVR would not only make the MV more usable at bedroom volumes, but would also allow you to get massive amounts powertube saturation with the amp no louder than conversation. Like I said, I played a blackstar with that feature and with extreme VVR settings, the volume midly swells and then after the 9 o'clock position doesn't get any louder, you just hear the power tube compression begin to take place, then if you want more volume, back off on the extreme VVR settings.

A power scaling type setup might be a little tough for most here to implement

 

[TheWinterSnow]

^That is very true, although it is the best option.

 

[rispsira]

You guys keep talking about volume like it's important only for the amp. The volume is for the cab as much as for the amp. You can't really hear the cab without volume.

yup that too

 

[thorrune]

A volume pedal in the effects loop is also an easy workaround to getting more range from the Post Gain controls.