Mate, you totally missed the point(s). Thats cool, go forth and conquer. The mix is perfect.
Another one from the Untruth EP (Produced, Engineered & Mixed)
- Thread starter Ermz
- Start date
Mate, you totally missed the point(s). Thats cool, go forth and conquer. The mix is perfect.
I'm not really sure what you want me to say? There's no need to be flippant, to my knowledge I haven't been disrespectful here, but please let me know if I have. I read your posts and acknowledged their contents. I have no reference point from which to put your comments into perspective. Saying it's 'flat as a pancake' and 'distorted as fuck' is fine, but if you're alluding that I need to extract something educational from your comments, you need to provide something more. A reference point, some records of this type that you feel aren't distorted as fuck, don't have flappy snare phase relationships and a bottom end that's the 'right' way around.
Given our differing backgrounds in metal I assume our idea of the appropriate aesthetic is also very different. The material I work on doesn't have much relevance to late 80s grind, nor have I ever been particularly fond of those production types. If it's simply a stylistic difference in play, then I'm not really sure what point there was to miss? I can't quite figure out whether you take an issue with modern metal production aesthetics in general, or this mix specifically. As such it's once again hard to put your comments in perspective, and gain anything from them.
Given our differing backgrounds in metal I assume our idea of the appropriate aesthetic is also very different. The material I work on doesn't have much relevance to late 80s grind, nor have I ever been particularly fond of those production types. If it's simply a stylistic difference in play, then I'm not really sure what point there was to miss? I can't quite figure out whether you take an issue with modern metal production aesthetics in general, or this mix specifically. As such it's once again hard to put your comments in perspective, and gain anything from them.
this reminds me of posting on german forums, where people throw things like : "sounds like pigs in space..." or "squashed as fuck." comments...
while on this side it was more than accepted as a great production..
being a non exclusively metal guy (more rock and pop or the really weird things like stockhausen) i totally dig this prudction and in fact can be consider one of the best around here.
thumbs up for that productioN!
while on this side it was more than accepted as a great production..
being a non exclusively metal guy (more rock and pop or the really weird things like stockhausen) i totally dig this prudction and in fact can be consider one of the best around here.
thumbs up for that productioN!
metalfanat1c
Member
- Jun 17, 2010
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The guy is your typical metal listener. He wants to tell you everything that's wrong with your mix, but he can't find anything that isn't just opinion and therefore is making shit up off the top of his head.
Metal is SUPPOSED to be distorted, otherwise metal amps would consist of Twin Reverbs and JC-120s. There's nothing distorted about this mix, and saying a snare sounds "flappy" is like saying a GTO sounds like a Honda quad. I've never heard a snare that I would describe as flappy, nor have I heard a muscle car that sounded like a quad.
Metal is SUPPOSED to be distorted, otherwise metal amps would consist of Twin Reverbs and JC-120s. There's nothing distorted about this mix, and saying a snare sounds "flappy" is like saying a GTO sounds like a Honda quad. I've never heard a snare that I would describe as flappy, nor have I heard a muscle car that sounded like a quad.
Ermz, it's all good...let's back up a bit. I'm not ragging on your mix. The comments were in the context of the critical listening environment that I believed this sub-forum caters to. I should have made that clearer, apologies. The mix is good, sincerely.
The comments regarding my perspective were simply to give you a bit of context. I shouldn't really have had to add that, the opinions stand regardless (for better or for worse), but the unengaged blow-off of the Gearslutz comment dictated it may contribute further understanding to the discussion. Unfortunately it muddied the waters further even after I explicitly stated it wasn't the motivation for the comments. I have no interest in taking cheap pot shots to make myself feel superior on an internet forum.
The (slightly pointed) comment you made about plenty of bands staying true to late 80's,early 90's production - I'm here cause I'm interested in modern metal production!
Anyway, I'm happy to leave it at that and not bore the fuck out of ourselves and everyone else bumping ego's. Oh, and I could have been a little more delicate with the punch and distortion comments yes....Have a crack back by all means.
Fitz, I'm really not interested in taking cracks. Trust me when I sincerely say there is no bruised ego or anything of the sort from your comments. Once again, I welcome them, and I thank you for being honest and staying true to the precept behind this forum.
In another thread I made recently I had a few guys come in and make comments like:
These types of comments are great, because they let me know what the issue is, and how to address it. This is useful criticism. My issue here is that you are telling me that I'm missing a point, but I can't work out what that point is. I've read your posts, I've taken their content on board. But I can't work out whether you take issue with the production aesthetic of modern metal in general or only this particular mix.
To get into specifics...
-When you say 'distorted', do you mean over-mastered, or that the guitars have too much gain... or that the vocals are too saturated? Or all 3? Is this in reference to other modern metal mixes, or other genres/eras of music?
-When you say 'flat as a pancake' does that imply over-mastering again in terms of the track being robbed of dynamics, or too much clutter in the mix obscuring the ambiance/3d depth?
-I take it from the low-end comment that you like to hear a pronounced kick. That's absolutely cool. The issue in this case was that the drummer played very erratic beats. What you hear is a heavily heavily quantized version of something that didn't quite resemble a beat to start with. I didn't want the low-end accenting the beat in odd places, so instead I chose to have the bass guitar as the dominant element. I totally respect that the other way around could have worked, and perhaps someone other than myself would have pulled it off that way. I'll try to be more mindful of the lack of kick punch in coming mixes (shouldn't be hard since they're rock and driven by the kick).
So that's it basically. If we can clear up all that, I'll have a better platform from which to understand your comments, and learn from them in the future!
In another thread I made recently I had a few guys come in and make comments like:
These types of comments are great, because they let me know what the issue is, and how to address it. This is useful criticism. My issue here is that you are telling me that I'm missing a point, but I can't work out what that point is. I've read your posts, I've taken their content on board. But I can't work out whether you take issue with the production aesthetic of modern metal in general or only this particular mix.
To get into specifics...
-When you say 'distorted', do you mean over-mastered, or that the guitars have too much gain... or that the vocals are too saturated? Or all 3? Is this in reference to other modern metal mixes, or other genres/eras of music?
-When you say 'flat as a pancake' does that imply over-mastering again in terms of the track being robbed of dynamics, or too much clutter in the mix obscuring the ambiance/3d depth?
-I take it from the low-end comment that you like to hear a pronounced kick. That's absolutely cool. The issue in this case was that the drummer played very erratic beats. What you hear is a heavily heavily quantized version of something that didn't quite resemble a beat to start with. I didn't want the low-end accenting the beat in odd places, so instead I chose to have the bass guitar as the dominant element. I totally respect that the other way around could have worked, and perhaps someone other than myself would have pulled it off that way. I'll try to be more mindful of the lack of kick punch in coming mixes (shouldn't be hard since they're rock and driven by the kick).
So that's it basically. If we can clear up all that, I'll have a better platform from which to understand your comments, and learn from them in the future!
crillemannen
Member
Good job man.
It sounds pro, although i would probably done differently for sure but it is all subjective when you have reached a certain level. I would have driven the kick more to give it more punch, but it seems to be more of your style to have the kick to be just "there" without having that smack effect which i usually tend to do with the kick.
+ 1 on the high hihat, seems like you've been doing that lately and perhaps you should lower the hihat overall when you mix.
It sounds pro, although i would probably done differently for sure but it is all subjective when you have reached a certain level. I would have driven the kick more to give it more punch, but it seems to be more of your style to have the kick to be just "there" without having that smack effect which i usually tend to do with the kick.
+ 1 on the high hihat, seems like you've been doing that lately and perhaps you should lower the hihat overall when you mix.
Cool man, I'll be mindful of the hi-hat thing. A lot of it is actually coming from the overheads, so what I might do is side chain the hat track to the overheads to duck them whenever the direct track kicks in. Hopefully will allow me for some more crunchy, up-front hi-hat sounds without the ear-splitting.
Regarding the kick, do you feel this mix suffers from the same issue: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/Memnoir-Soundtrack For A Nightmare.mp3
Just want to work out whether it's something consistent across all of my mixes, or only the metal ones.
Regarding the kick, do you feel this mix suffers from the same issue: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/285689/Music/Memnoir-Soundtrack For A Nightmare.mp3
Just want to work out whether it's something consistent across all of my mixes, or only the metal ones.
crillemannen
Member
I usually tend to automate if the drummer plays that really annoying open hihat beat, because the Hihat usually peeks about 2dbs over the rest of the cymbals.
That mix seems to have a bit more balanced snare vs kick, great work, although im just listening through headphones.
You usually have a nice big bass sound, and i think you will have a hard time getting it that pronounced if you would make your kick more uppfront, as i usually have it in my mixes.
I reason that the kick is where the punch is in the mix, of course there need to be a overall mix punch but the kick is one of the biggest elements that should be adding punch. But as i said it is truly subjective, someone described your mix as flat, i would say well balanced and good overall punch without any specific element adding punch just everything glued together nicely.
That mix seems to have a bit more balanced snare vs kick, great work, although im just listening through headphones.
You usually have a nice big bass sound, and i think you will have a hard time getting it that pronounced if you would make your kick more uppfront, as i usually have it in my mixes.
I reason that the kick is where the punch is in the mix, of course there need to be a overall mix punch but the kick is one of the biggest elements that should be adding punch. But as i said it is truly subjective, someone described your mix as flat, i would say well balanced and good overall punch without any specific element adding punch just everything glued together nicely.
The distortion I'm refering to is on a lot of the tom fills, particularly just before 2 mins. It could be the limiter biting down hard and the lo freq content blowing it out but it could also just be the mp3 encoding as I mentioned. I'm not talking about guitars, there is no such thing as too much distortion on guitars! Not talking about vocals either.
The lack of transients. This might be the mastering limiting, converter clipping, mix processing/ compression, mix choice or all of the above. I call it the wet fish slap - the front edge gone. I like a good transient. I think it comes from years of live mixing.. It's what I hate most about the loudness thing these days and the move towards lower resolution playback systems. Thumping drums (transients, not volume) are fucking exciting to me. But we all know you can't have your cake and eat it too. I just think a lot of the time the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater for the sake of volume. I genuinely don't get the volume wars thing. I understand the realities but I still don't get it. I think in years to come this period in music is going to date badly - for a host of reasons. Anyway, that's another rant.
Not talking about mix depth or clutter, that's fine, excellent in fact.
Yeah I do for most heavy music, obviously depends on whether appropriate though. In that track it seemed like in places the snare was fatter than the kick (and I do like a fat snare). The clarity of the click component was there but the weight seemed to come and go depending on what was happening in the rest of the track. I agree the bass is sweet.
Incidently the comment about the snare phase thing was just about the middle marching section. Listening back it could be the drummer playing a flam too close together causing the snare to boink. It does seem like there is more real snare and room in that section. Either way it sounds flappy to me.
Hope that makes sense. I'm not entirely eloquent right now, I'm about to fall off my chair asleep. Kept it short...
Cool, thanks a bunch for that, twas what I was hoping for.
Is it fair then, aside from the kick, that a majority of these issues you cite are mastering-related?
Admittedly I probably did clip the snare somewhat in the mix in order to aid its retention in ye olde brickwalling process, so that's likely what you consider to be that chopped sound. It makes a lot of sense, knowing you're coming from a background of live mixing.
I guess it's different for some of us, who have grown up with this sort of thing. The snare was the very first thing to get lost in any limited metal mix, so we adopted the idea of clipping the transients within the mix in order to retain its forwardness in the final product. After all, what use is that transient if it just causes the entire mix to duck. Compromise I guess, but many of us learned to live with it as part of 'the sound'. I can totally respect that you want to hear more of the transient intact though... with this level of headroom I'm not sure it's possible, at least not for me.
On another note, you must be excited about the Slate FG-X plug-in then? Might do exactly what you're after for today's masters.
Anyway thanks a lot for elucidating. I didn't want this to turn into some snarky ego battle. It's great to learn where you're coming from, and as a result, where the comments are as well.
I'll keep it all on board, and address as much of it within the mix as I can, however I can't help but feel that many of these are simply by-products that come from mastering at today's levels!
Is it fair then, aside from the kick, that a majority of these issues you cite are mastering-related?
Admittedly I probably did clip the snare somewhat in the mix in order to aid its retention in ye olde brickwalling process, so that's likely what you consider to be that chopped sound. It makes a lot of sense, knowing you're coming from a background of live mixing.
I guess it's different for some of us, who have grown up with this sort of thing. The snare was the very first thing to get lost in any limited metal mix, so we adopted the idea of clipping the transients within the mix in order to retain its forwardness in the final product. After all, what use is that transient if it just causes the entire mix to duck. Compromise I guess, but many of us learned to live with it as part of 'the sound'. I can totally respect that you want to hear more of the transient intact though... with this level of headroom I'm not sure it's possible, at least not for me.
On another note, you must be excited about the Slate FG-X plug-in then? Might do exactly what you're after for today's masters.
Anyway thanks a lot for elucidating. I didn't want this to turn into some snarky ego battle. It's great to learn where you're coming from, and as a result, where the comments are as well.
I'll keep it all on board, and address as much of it within the mix as I can, however I can't help but feel that many of these are simply by-products that come from mastering at today's levels!
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