Answers from Professional Musicians Needed

[LydonB]

Long story short, in another forum that I frequent (not a music forum), there is a discussion about piracy. Oh fun! Many people seem to think that the majority of bands/artists income is made based off of merchandise sales and they get very little from album sales so it is okay to download albums because record companies get that money anyway.

I have always heard that merchandise sales is a large part of income from TOURING...but I cannot imagine that merchandise sales is more important than album sales. Am I mistaken? If a band was so great at selling merchandise, it seems they would be better suited to have their own clothing line at JCPenney's instead of selling albums.

I know touring is incredibly important to the success of albums and probably the band as well. What percentage of the ticket cost can the band expect to make per show? Does the sale of merchandise result in more money than ticket sales?

Any additional information you want to share would be awesome as well.

I am by no means an expert on the subject, hence my asking. I'd just like to get the scoop on the money side of being in a professional band or being a professional solo artist. You do not have to use your personal figures, I'd just like to see example scenarios.


Disclaimer: Do not come in this thread and discuss your opinion of the rightness/wrongness of piracy and how downloading albums is okay or not okay. Those discussions always turn into a shit show similar to mac vs pc threads. If you want to ask questions to contribute to the thread, thats fine...just make sure that they are relevant to the discussion and not trying to start arguments.

 

[Moonlight_Seeker]

Bands sell their hoodies more then 40$. Their albums are sold less then 20$. Hoodies are not very expensive to make. Albums are very expensive to make.

What percentage of the ticket cost can the band expect to make per show?

From all the things I read when small bands are touring they don't want a percentage they want a fix rate.

 

[SentencedToBurn]

an example would be a rap artist. MOST famous rappers dont play a lot of shows (especially next to a rock/metal band), yet they remain a lot more wealthy then any musician this day and age. This is coming from album sales. Sure, they are selling a lot more cd's then rock and metal acts, but you can look at these rappers and obviously tell that cd sales make the majority of their income.
And you can leave energy drinks, clothing lines, alcohol, etc. out of the question because only a handful of them dive into that scenerio.
So YES! cd sales do matter. I almost think the whole "they make their money off of shirts" is an old wise tale.

 

[SentencedToBurn]

Bands sell their hoodies more then 40$. Their albums are sold less then 20$. Hoodies are not very expensive to make. Albums are very expensive to make.



From all the things I read when small bands are touring they don't want a percentage they want a fix rate.

what bands hoodie is more then 40 bucks?? FUUUUCK that. whos buying this?

 

[DolphinSplatter]

afaik most of the money bands make is from the merch.
but I also think it depends a lot on how big the band is. I know some dudes in black tide, and I've never heard them talk about merch.. but they are famous as shit.
I know other dudes with a cd out on willowtip and they are far more worried about how many shirts they sell than cds

 

[LydonB]

Bands sell their hoodies more then 40$. Their albums are sold less then 20$. Hoodies are not very expensive to make. Albums are very expensive to make.



From all the things I read when small bands are touring they don't want a percentage they want a fix rate.

Well yeah. But I still find it hard to believe that merchandise sales are more important than album sales. The whole point of a tour is to promote an album, not to promote your merchandise. Obviously a band wants to sell their merch, but they are in the business of selling albums, not selling a clothing line. I would think that albums are priority and need to account for more income than merch in the large scheme of things.

If they want a fixed rate, I think it would be interesting to see what kind of money they can command and how much of that they actually get to keep after all the expenses. Bands sleep in vans instead of hotels for a reason too.

 

[Moonlight_Seeker]

what bands hoodie is more then 40 bucks?? FUUUUCK that. whos buying this?

Here is the 1st google link which is not ebay :
http://www.oldglory.com/lp/search;jsessionid=1pyjwrc767pxs?o=AND&VIEW_SIZE=25&c=MUS_15000&k=hoodies

Have you ever been in a store?

Well yeah. But I still find it hard to believe that merchandise sales are more important than album sales. The whole point of a tour is to promote an album, not to promote your merchandise. Obviously a band wants to sell their merch, but they are in the business of selling albums, not selling a clothing line. I would think that albums are priority and need to account for more income than merch in the large scheme of things.

1st, I am not an expert.
2nd, bands won't sell merch if their albums are unknown and suck. Before selling clothes you must sell JC Penney, for a boring example.

If they want a fixed rate, I think it would be interesting to see what kind of money they can command and how much of that they actually get to keep after all the expenses. Bands sleep in vans instead of hotels for a reason too

Well I would advice not to do your first tour in winter. But bands want a fixed rate to make sure they will at least have enough money for peanut butter and bread and cheap tequila. And if their gig was successful they would logically sell merch, which would pay for the BBQ chips and maybe some not so cheap vodka. If they have 3 unsuccessful gigs in a row for example, because it is not their hometown the promoter would be a bit responsible for that. So you cannot go hungry and out of gas because some dude was too lazy or stupid to promote an unknown band. Usually first tours I think don't bring da bling ya know. I think it depends on how the band promotes itself outside its town... or something. But sometimes very unknown bands come play here, and I am at the same bar downstairs at the same time and do I want to pay 10$ to seea band I never heard of who probably suck because let's face it, a lot of bands suck?

Here is a link I found some time ago, it's called "American touring rules v1.03".

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=300043&blogID=207015481

 

[SoundSpiral]

The best thing about merchandise is that you get the money while you are on tour.
I can't think of a better time for a band to get some more money =)

Album sales and merch are both important for different reasons and they feed one another.

 

[Charlie E.]

I have yet to see a penny from the Aghora debut...
Cd's sales are pretty crappy income from my own experience and from what I hear as well. I remember my friend going to Namm and talking to other pros and how poor they are.
Don't forget to add in costs when making calculations.
Put it this way, lets say you make 20% of CD sales at 10 bucks a pop, that's 2 dollars per CD. Now lets say you got a $8,000 recording advance. You'd have to sell 4,000 units just to break even. Now lets say are lucky and you have 10,000 fans but only a quarter of them decide to buy the CD and the others decide to rip it. Now you owe the record label $3,000 and are in risk of being dropped from the label entirely
So yea merch is usually a better way to make money. Of course merch isn't cheap to make either and you pretty much have to go on tour to make any significant merch sales. This usually means you need to get on a good booking agency which means you have to be signed to a pretty good label and have a good buzz going. Then you have to pay said booking agency. Then there are van costs, gas, food etc it's no wonder bands like The Human Abstract etc beg to crash at their fans houses when on tour...
To answer your question about gigs. Most bands get paid a flat fee. Sometimes a lower flat fee + a % of the door. Sometimes the promoters get to decide.
But basically since they get paid no matter what, it's the promoters ass if the show bombs. But that's another thread entirely.
Long story short album sales do matter. If only for the sake of keeping the record company happy so they don't kick you from their roster and help you promote etc. From what I hear lately though, record labels are starting to dig into merch sales now when signing bands because of the decline of CD sales.

 

[DolphinSplatter]

hahahaha my old room mate brought the human abstract over a couple of months ago

 

[James-Doolan]

Ha ha you guys are talking as if most metal bands make any money at all il bet the majority of bands are at a loss financially when you take into account the opertunity cost of their time put into writing, producing and performing their music and i mean not even close to breaking even. Only bands i can think of making bank are busy wedding/cover bands. Hell id bet even the guys in killswitch are only now starting to see an income suitable for the amount of effort they have put in over the years. Anyways if ya want to get paid go to college and get a usefull degree

 

[slayercannibalsuffohead]

I think merch is like the tyres on an F1 car, not the most important or dear component, but plays an important role overall.



I have bought all my Iron Maiden albums for around $400 aus. I have spent 10 times that on merch over the last 15 years.



With merch, you can visually see what you are getting, but with an unknown C.D, you just dont know. Merch is like your cover for your album. I bought IM Killers, Motorhead orgasmatron and Yngwie Malmsteens Rising Force because of the front covers. This was 20 years ago, and I am glad I did.



i think if you have something thats visually pleasing, (like Iron Maiden t shirts) it goes a long way to snaring someone into your music.



i went to a Blooduster gig last year, and I saw more people buy the merch (especially the black t shirt that had CUNT written on the front of it), than their cd.



But in the end, I think the music has to be better than the merch, but if you can do both well, eg Iron Maiden, Slayer, Cannibal Corpse, you are gonna go a long way.

 

[vespiz]

On the last minitour in Europe, we made gas money with the merchandise.
It cost a shit load of money to even get there (plane tickets, van rental etc) and there was no way we could break-even, but it was worth it IMO.

Heck, it was better than a vacation in some tourist-hell-by-the-beach.

Small steps all the way and selling merch is a way to make you more known.
Everything you do/sell on a tour is promotion one way or the other.

 

[Razorjack]

Album sales keep labels happy, labels promote you and their contacts get you tours/support slots/festivals - it's on these higher profiles gigs that you make your money from merch.

 

[gabriel g.]

We (badge of apathy) pay mastering with merch-money!!!! Money we make: 35% Cd´s /55% merch/ 10% money we get from the bookers.
The costs for renting a Van and gas eat up most of the fee.

 

[xFkx]

Yeah, investing in your own van is a must at some point, otherwise you'll always eat up the gig/merch money.

 

[gabriel g.]

Yeah the problem is, we dont have the money for that!!!
So we always need to rent a van so all our fee is going into it and the gas...

So merch and Cd´s are the only way to get some money to invest..

 

[TheDude]

It's only a few bands that make their money from the merch. Merch is NOT more important than the CD sales. All touring we do, turns out to be a break-even deal. The merch is some sugar on top, in my experience. Tou basically need a daytime job to be able to pay the rent, and to be able to make money on touring, you'd have to tour all the time. It's a moment 22 for us, since we don't sell loads of albums, and we've got families with kids that don't really appreciate when you're away for a month, but make 25% of the money she does.

Tell the other forum to just shut up. They're wrong.

Short version: 2% of all bands sell enough CD's. 2% of all bands sell the amount of merchandise to make serious money. Guess who those 2% are. The rest struggles, have part time jobs and so on.

 

[darth_cupboardy]

i too always thought that most musician don't earn enough money with CD sales.
Kurt Cobain once stated that he needed to sell 8 million copies of nevermind to get one million dollar. so thats 12.5 cent per cd. so you need to sell at least 150-200 000 copies to make a stable living with only cd sales. And Michael Romeo once stated the money they earned during a tour had to last until the next tour, and they have part time jobs as well during the break between tours.
I'd like to hear James Murphy on this topic because i think he could give us the most professional answer, plus always opens my eyes on these topics and shows me that my previous vision of things was just utterly wrong.
So I may be wrong here again

 

[JonWormwood]

I remember chatting with suicide silence they said they made about the same as a part time mall worker, they said 5-700 a week each. (last year at mayhem)