Anti-Intellectualism

judas69

god is in the radio
Dec 29, 2005
2,003
2
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To a certain degree, I think intellectualism is yet another extreme creating monsters out of ordinary people. Lets face it, the average person is not very rational or all that intellectual, no matter how hard they try.

You guys could take this topic wherever you want, I'm just noticing this place is getting a little empty on topics. However, speaking only for myself, I have a much higher regard for honesty than intellectualism, and although you wouldn't necessarily conclude these things to be contradictory, it seems the ego driven nature of most intellectuals overwhelms those more natural, and sometimes ignorant, tendencies that make us imperfect humans. We are not robots. Why do some become so ridgid?

I may have went off topic a bit, I'm drunk afterall, but here's a link to help encourage further discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism
 
I think there are anti-intellectual sentiments because people overexplain the obvious, and because people love to hear themselves speak. The goal of philosophy, and all problems, is to find truths. The truth, and acknowledging it, is simple.
 
10293847 said:
The goal of philosophy, and all problems, is to find truths. The truth, and acknowledging it, is simple.

Simple in theory, but in practice...not so much. Not in the society in which I dwell.
*"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is revolutionary act."
- George Orwell
 
10293847 said:
I think there are anti-intellectual sentiments because people overexplain the obvious, and because people love to hear themselves speak. The goal of philosophy, and all problems, is to find truths. The truth, and acknowledging it, is simple.

It would be great if philosophy was geared towards finding truths that are helpful in some purposeful way. Not all truths are useful. In the same way that mathematics doesn't necesssarily have any useful applicable purpose and often seems to be just a lot of calculations for their own sake, so philosophy can end up being an overly complicated excercise in navel gazing.
 
Could you please give an example of a philosophical truth that is useful. Thanks.
 
Cythraul said:
Could you please give an example of a philosophical truth that is useful. Thanks.

Most of Nietzsche's philosophy is useful. Eg "Faith means not wanting to know what is true".
This is useful because it can serve the purpose of making one realise that questioning things and not swallowing dogma is essential in order to avoid being manipulated in such a way that would be harmful to one's best interests.
 
Norsemaiden said:
Most of Nietzsche's philosophy is useful. Eg "Faith means not wanting to know what is true".

But is it true? That example just looks like a catchy, clever saying to me, not well-reasoned philosophy. Does he offer an argument?

This is useful because it can serve the purpose of making one realise that questioning things and not swallowing dogma is essential in order to avoid being manipulated in such a way that would be harmful to one's best interests.

Sure, I guess. I didn't find it particularly useful but if you do then more power to you.
 
Weren't you one of the persons who said that philosophy should not be useless musings or "sciences bitch" but a mode of living your life, Cythraul?
No matter if it was yours, i agree with this opinion. Certainly philosophy (or other parts of "intellectualism") can be usefull.

I think the problem is, as has party been said, that many people like to hear themselves speak and thus talk alot even if they don't have somethign to say. And because seeming intellectual and erudite has been a sign for a high social status people tend to mix greek and latin words under the nonsense they talk to that it is not only much, but also seems more intellectual.
Many people dislike that of course. They would like people to make a point and then stop speaking, and to only use scientific vocabulary where it is usefull to be more clear or precise.

--> Being actuall anti-intellectual is not very usefull, but being anti-pseudo-intellectual is.
Many people can't make the distinction in fields that are not their own and thus call anything they don't understand pseudo-intellectual.
 
Norsemaiden said:
Most of Nietzsche's philosophy is useful. Eg "Faith means not wanting to know what is true".

I agree, this is poor logic and it's loaded with his own individual bias aswell. It's no different than stating that all atheists are atheists because they want to escape the moral consequences of their actions.

That said, one might therefore ask, is the believer better off putting their faith in the intellectual community especially when (1) they have the power to more easily persuade the non-intellectual, truth aside, and when there is (2) constant arguement and disagreement? Just going by the quote and Norsemaiden's interpretation, we shouldn't even have faith in Nietzsche, let alone any philosopher.

Where are we then? Probably a little bit closer to Anti-Intellectualism if anywhere.
 
So one shouldn't accept someone's advice not to believe in nonsense, and to analyse things before making a decision, because in so doing one is effectively accepting what that person advises - which may be nonsense?

Another of my favourite observations by Nietzsche is that the inferior people think that all greatness is blameworthy. This is useful in making sense of the logic behind the communist tendency to attack those who are intellectual or artistically skilled such as in the Chinese Cultural Revolution.

Are those who disagree with me saying a)philosophy cannot be useful or b) all philosophy is useful or c)the examples I give do not prove my original premise to be accurate, but someone else could do a better job of doing so?

My original premise was that some philosophy is useful, and that that is a good thing, wheras some philosophy is useless and uninspiring.
 
Cythraul said:
But is it true? That example just looks like a catchy, clever saying to me, not well-reasoned philosophy. Does he offer an argument?

Does he offer an argument? You are, I must assume, familiar with Nietzsche, so I am confused by this. Is this argument not a recurring, if not central theme throughout most of his mature works? Virtually the whole bodies of "Beyond Good and Evil" "Thus Spake..." "Genealogy of Morals" "Twilight of The Idols" and of course "The Anti-Christ" are arguments supporting the quote Norsemaiden noted, and of course much more than this. I should say he argued the philosophical point in that quote quite thoroughly.
 
Norsemaiden said:
Most of Nietzsche's philosophy is useful. Eg "Faith means not wanting to know what is true".
This is useful because it can serve the purpose of making one realise that questioning things and not swallowing dogma is essential in order to avoid being manipulated in such a way that would be harmful to one's best interests.

Yes, Nietzsche is typically sententious here and, characteristically, the quote is an antilogy. Elsewhere he reasons that any truth that threatens life should be shunned as undesirable or even erroneous. The wisdom of Silenus, 'that it would be better for man to never have been' forms the great despairing nihilism against which the 'in spite of' of Nietzsche's philosophy is set. Questioning and inquiry arise from the death of God; the greatest tragedy of mankind, veneficious to purpose and breeding apathy and nihilism. It is only through the doctrine of eternal recurrence that this tragedy leads to the infinite.

Truth for Nietzsche is only that which loves life. Wisdom should dictate the bounds of knowledge - there are some things that man should not wish to know.
 
On topic:

I fear my reply must be mostly anecdotal. As a long-term student and aspirant lecturer, this is an issue that has troubled me of late.

Having experienced life on both sides of the Atlantic, I find a prevailing anti-intellectual bias pervades Western culture. It is most notable in America. Athletic prowess, musicianship, beauty or skills at a trade are treated with reverence or even apotheosis. Academic/intellectual ability, however, is scorned and ridiculed, even by intelligent people, as a pedantic irrelevance pursued by (the ubiquitous) 'worthless layabout,' too indolent to bruise his hands with real work (presumably coal mining of breaking concrete).

Perhaps I am a dreadful pseudo-intellectual myself - even a cursory glance at responses my posts receive on a couple of other forums on which I post would suggest so. Use of words other than the fifty that form the vernacular, or mentioning of thinkers outside of Oprah or Homer Simpson is laughed at and mocked. Interestingly, this ridicule seems to stem from a belief that the intent is exhibitionist (it is not) yet, when taken to other fields, such as electric guitar playing, those who 'masturbate' with extravagant showmanship are often praised as heroes (Malmsteen, Vai etc).

During a recent air flight I sat next to a cantankerous old man who averred, upon learning of my desire to become a lecturer, that this constituted an admission that I had 'no practical skills whatsoever.' I can see the feigned incredulity mixed with scorn emblazoned on his brow now. 'Mercifully, I don't,' I replied, 'do you have any intellectual?' He pretended not to hear. I wondered if it might not be possible to have both. He looked at me as if there were something wrong with me when I told him that I would happily work for free if I were supported with food and lodgings. The real world does not want enthusiasm. If you reach out with something genuine, it recoils. People must be cynical.

For a long time I felt almost guilty about my hopes. These doubts were exacerbated by a growing realisation that, increasingly, academia is a self-perpetuating papermound of sophistry with no audience outside of its subject. I remember attending a nauseous seminar session two years ago at which I was told, 'make sure you keep certain members of staff on side’ (so they give you a good PhD reference) and, ‘don’t tell well known academics of your work in too much detail or they will steal it.’ What a dishonest system for the appraisal of ideas. What a sickening revelation of the egocentric nature of the field.

After a time, however, I came to realise that the consensus view of academia - out of touch, self-important, egotistical, useless irrelevance - does not curtail my interest in literature and philosophy. I wish to become an academic because I genuinely love my subject and feel it is a part of me. I wish to learn and teach and create new works. Even if it is true that all literature is useless for most people and, by such people, I waste my life, I am not afraid to make that mistake for the simple possibility of changing the part of the world that I am able to and supporting that in life which I love.

In short, even if intellectualism is despised, I don’t really care, or if I do, I don’t care enough to not find the work of intellectuals interesting.
 
Interesting post. You make many valid observations Nile. I do think it is possible to be both intellectual and reasonably practical though. And I especially believe it is possible to have a well developed, athletic body and be intellectual at the same time. The only thing is that keeping fit takes hours out of your day when you can't be reading. I suppose you can listen to something while excercising though. Being physically fit helps brain function.

The explanation for the hositility towards the intellectual by the morons is for two reasons: the hatred by the inferior towards all greatness, as observed by Nietzsche and also that every society has designated certain things to be "prizes" that are valued for status. Intellectualism was valued considerably more in Victorian England than it is valued anywhere in the West today. Being an intellectual in those days was full of kudos.

Through means of mutual understanding, a group regulates the competition among its members so that we strive for symbolic prizes according to rules and regulations presumably fair to all. Beyond the border where communication fails, however, the prizes galvanising our society may lie beyond another's comprehension. For East Africa's Masai tribe possession of cattle may symbolise high status, while for the neighbouring Kikuyu it is the pursuit of political power and large black cars. Each is slightly mad in the view of the other. The prize of one society may lie in numbers of wives, in another in numbers of acres, in another in the numbers of a Swiss bank account. Within a single society times may change: the lure of the court and the warrior's way, together with a scorn for money and commerce, may give way to the ascendancy of industry and accumulated wealth, which with further tidal changes may in turn give way to the prizes of high management, economic or political.

From "The Social Contract" by Robert Ardrey
 
reasonbran.gif


from www.abrupt.com
 
Nile577 said:
On topic:

I fear my reply must be mostly anecdotal. As a long-term student and aspirant lecturer, this is an issue that has troubled me of late.

Having experienced life on both sides of the Atlantic, I find a prevailing anti-intellectual bias pervades Western culture. It is most notable in America. Athletic prowess, musicianship, beauty or skills at a trade are treated with reverence or even apotheosis. Academic/intellectual ability, however, is scorned and ridiculed, even by intelligent people, as a pedantic irrelevance pursued by (the ubiquitous) 'worthless layabout,' too indolent to bruise his hands with real work (presumably coal mining of breaking concrete).

Perhaps I am a dreadful pseudo-intellectual myself - even a cursory glance at responses my posts receive on a couple of other forums on which I post would suggest so. Use of words other than the fifty that form the vernacular, or mentioning of thinkers outside of Oprah or Homer Simpson is laughed at and mocked. Interestingly, this ridicule seems to stem from a belief that the intent is exhibitionist (it is not) yet, when taken to other fields, such as electric guitar playing, those who 'masturbate' with extravagant showmanship are often praised as heroes (Malmsteen, Vai etc).

During a recent air flight I sat next to a cantankerous old man who averred, upon learning of my desire to become a lecturer, that this constituted an admission that I had 'no practical skills whatsoever.' I can see the feigned incredulity mixed with scorn emblazoned on his brow how. 'Mercifully, I don't,' I replied, 'do you have any intellectual?' He pretended not to hear. I wondered if it might not be possible to have both. He looked at me as if there were something wrong with me when I told him that I would happily work for free if I were supported with food and lodgings. The real world does not want enthusiasm. If you reach out with something genuine, it recoils. People must be cynical.

For a long time I felt almost guilty about my hopes. These doubts were exacerbated by a growing realisation that, increasingly, academia is a self-perpetuating papermound of sophistry with no audience outside of its subject. I remember attending a nauseous seminar session two years ago at which I was told, 'make sure you keep certain members of staff on side’ (so they give you a good PhD reference) and, ‘don’t tell well known academics of your work in too much detail or they will steal it.’ What a dishonest system for the appraisal of ideas. What a sickening revelation of the egocentric nature of the field.

After a time, however, I came to realise that the consensus view of academia - out of touch, self-important, egotistical, useless irrelevance - does not curtail my interest in literature and philosophy. I wish to become an academic because I genuinely love my subject and feel it is a part of me. I wish to learn and teach and create new works. Even if it is true that all literature is useless for most people and, by such people, I waste my life, I am not afraid to make that mistake for the simple possibility of changing the part of the world that I am able to and supporting that in life which I love.

In short, even if intellectualism is despised, I don’t really care, or if I do, I don’t care enough to not find the work of intellectuals interesting.

This is a keen observation on the sceptical, if not openly hostile view of intellectualism today. It does seem that this phenomenon has expanded dramatically in the post WW2 western world. That ubiquitous cynicism you mention appears to have further metastacized in recent decades.
It is curious how in America, we lionize 'teachers' often gushing about them having the "most important jobs in the world" and similar platitudes. Yet, the scorn we hold for genuine intellectualism is fragrant! But we adore the "overindustriousness" thinkers like Nietzsche recoiled at more than a century ago - if he could see us now! Work=good...deep thought=bad.
You, Nile, are a teacher by nature, I suspect. You pursue knowledge not for knowledge's sake, but with a passion for the subject matter, the very learning process itself. This is a quality I have witnessed in my 37 years in precious few individuals. That this pursuit is out of step with our modern live fast, group activity-oriented, instant-gratification motivated society is certain. Just as certain to me, however, is without those with a passion for intellectual 'knowledge', for literature and philosophy, we shall become a people devoid of any real culture, insight or genuine enlightenment, if we haven't already.
I look at the intellectual pursuits as an art form, and yes, I am even sometimes entertained this way. More ciritically though, I believe the intellectual is a natural gateway to the practical. The old saw about "sharpening one's ax" rather than continually laboring in the forest with a dull blade comes to mind.
 
Norsemaiden said:
So one shouldn't accept someone's advice not to believe in nonsense, and to analyse things before making a decision, because in so doing one is effectively accepting what that person advises - which may be nonsense?

I don't know if that's directed at me but I don't see where I made such claims. I am asking you if the quote that you used as an example is true. If so, what reasoning supports it?

Are those who disagree with me saying a)philosophy cannot be useful or b) all philosophy is useful or c)the examples I give do not prove my original premise to be accurate, but someone else could do a better job of doing so?

a) I'm not saying that. Philosophy can be useful.
b) Not all philosophy is useful, but I guess what counts as useful is sort of interest-relative.
c) If the quote in your example inspires somebody not to blindly accept received opinions then good for them. I just don't think what you quoted is true. If it's not true, then it's not a genuine insight and it's not useful on account of being a genuine insight about how things really are. I find it rather useless.
 
OldScratch said:
But we adore the "overindustriousness" thinkers like Nietzsche recoiled at more than a century ago - if he could see us now! Work=good...deep thought=bad.

Intellectualism has much more to do with what you have (PhD) and how you view yourself next to the average person (elitism) than say, your intellectual capability or interest in philosophy or the arts.

This thread really has more to do with academic intellectualism I believe.

And as far as Nile577's post goes, if one refuses to talk on the level of the ordinary person, especially in public, it will come across as though you are talking above the person and not with them. I think the goal of anti-intellectualism is to level off the playing field, that ideas have merit on their own aside from the thinker behind them, and the extent of his or her academic distinction and cultural awareness.
 
OldScratch said:
Does he offer an argument? You are, I must assume, familiar with Nietzsche, so I am confused by this.

Sure, I'm familiar with Nietzsche. However, I haven't read any of his works in a couple of years.

Is this argument not a recurring, if not central theme throughout most of his mature works? Virtually the whole bodies of "Beyond Good and Evil" "Thus Spake..." "Genealogy of Morals" "Twilight of The Idols" and of course "The Anti-Christ" are arguments supporting the quote Norsemaiden noted, and of course much more than this.

Ok, so point me to some relevant passages, unless of course you're expecting me to digest the entire Nietzsche canon in order to comprehend the argument that's supposed to support what Norsemaiden quoted. Can the argument be summed up? Can you sum it up for me? If not, is there somewhere I can look to find a summary of it?

I should say he argued the philosophical point in that quote quite thoroughly.

That's absurd. A single statement does not constitute an argument. If I told you there was a penguin standing outside of your front door would you take that as constituting an argument for the truth of said claim? I would think not. Most likely, you'd expect me to give you some reason for believing that there's a penguin standing outside of your door.