xxxxxxx: Well
xxxxxxx: the UN is officially going to hell
ozmagreed: why?
xxxxxxx: France is maintaining its anti-war stance
xxxxxxx: after Blix's report
xxxxxxx: so the US and UK will go without a "second resolution"
ozmagreed: france having a veto is so dumb
xxxxxxx: Well
xxxxxxx: really
xxxxxxx: think about it
xxxxxxx: all these fatuous anti-war protests
xxxxxxx: that would be diffused by a UN mandate
xxxxxxx: which would be nice since our troops are going in
xxxxxxx: well
xxxxxxx: now its all going to go to hell
xxxxxxx: b/c France has to be contrary.
ozmagreed: im going to the protest tomorrow in NYC i think
xxxxxxx: why
xxxxxxx: ?
ozmagreed: cause its cool
ozmagreed: why arent you going?
xxxxxxx: b/c its gay
ozmagreed: no its not
xxxxxxx: nor do I feel like throwing my weight behind the other movements that will be present and synonymous with peace like "Free Mumia" and "Nationalized Healthcare Now!"
ozmagreed: you dont think the republican party is gay because it has gay elements
ozmagreed: why is the antiwar movement any different?
xxxxxxx: B/c the antiwar movement is a mix of communists, socialists, ostrich-like idealists, and dopey-ass pacifists.
ozmagreed: the republican party is a mix of assholes, nazis, and shitheads
ozmagreed: every movement has its bad side
ozmagreed: and idealists and pacifists aren't "bad"
ozmagreed: objectively
ozmagreed: and arguably neither are socialists
xxxxxxx: this is why I seperated them
ozmagreed: separated them?
xxxxxxx: and they are bad when they get in the way of this country remaining focused on the fact we are at war. These are the same assholes that think we should have hugged afghanistans instead of bombing them.
xxxxxxx: (seperated as in said "socialists" and "idealists" as opposed to assuming one equalled the other)
ozmagreed: so you are on the side of the same assholes who tried to commit jewish genocide once
xxxxxxx: fascists are against the war, too
ozmagreed: haha NOWADAYS
ozmagreed: im saying
ozmagreed: you can't ascribe the more odious viewpoints of a group to the whole group necessarily
ozmagreed: and in concept, antiwar is a great thing
ozmagreed: just because it may or may not be appropriate for right now
ozmagreed: the motivations of many of them are suspect
ozmagreed: but
xxxxxxx: When it saps the national will in a time of war
xxxxxxx: it serves no good point.
ozmagreed: im not saying bush should not attack iraq "because it's about oil"
ozmagreed: even though it partially is
ozmagreed: that's a very nazi attitude to have
ozmagreed: literally
xxxxxxx: point in order - "antiwar" is what caused this whole UN vicious cycle to begin with
ozmagreed: not just nazi = bad
xxxxxxx: mainly
ozmagreed: like i usually use it
ozmagreed: no it's not
ozmagreed: anti-bush is
ozmagreed: anti-america is
ozmagreed: not anti-war
xxxxxxx: the 1991 resolution that said "liberate kuwait but DONT TOUCH HUSSEIN"
ozmagreed: you can't disparage or marginalize morally good viewpoints just because "we need to shape people's attitudes and these dissenters are screwing everything up"
xxxxxxx: In my life's experience, being anti-war (removing Hussein in 1991, Kosovo, now) means pushing for some half-assed or no-assed solution that makes problems worse
ozmagreed: if the country can't get it through their heads that certain things need to be done without brainwashing, we shouldn't be doing anything
ozmagreed: so war is ALWAYS the answer
ozmagreed: is what you're saying
ozmagreed: like, never NOT
xxxxxxx: War is not always the answer, but there's a difference between "anti-war" as in debating the issues
ozmagreed: you just said that antiwar is halfassed and makes things worse
ozmagreed: antiwar isn't just the non-debating, "won't take yes for an answer" facet
ozmagreed: of the movement
xxxxxxx: and anti-war movements which are just extremist demonstrations that weaken a national will
xxxxxxx: and maybe you are right
xxxxxxx: oh GAG
xxxxxxx: GAG
xxxxxxx: GAG
xxxxxxx: they just APPLAUDED
xxxxxxx: the French foreign minister
xxxxxxx: anyways back to my point
xxxxxxx: you may be right that antiwar serves a purpose on occasion
ozmagreed: the whole weakening a national will argument is lame
ozmagreed: less than lame
ozmagreed: you could make the same argument for Germany cracking down on people who spoke out against Hitler
xxxxxxx: yeah, except the government isn't cracking down
ozmagreed: and i dont think it is fair or right to equivocate American and Germany
xxxxxxx: on protestors
ozmagreed: so, the problem wasnt just the german govt cracking down
xxxxxxx: Well
ozmagreed: it was the shamefulness of the german people looking down on and persecuting those who disagreed as well
xxxxxxx: look at the adverse effect this movement is having on the economy, on people being able to handle what we are up against
ozmagreed: haha
ozmagreed: blaming the economy
ozmagreed: on this movement
xxxxxxx: This is a time when the country should be together, facing these problems. Instead you have a bunch of chicken littles
ozmagreed: is dumb
xxxxxxx: It's certainly a factor alex
ozmagreed: if america deserves to police the world, then it should be able to handle and embrace that shit
ozmagreed: so is bush's tax cut paul
ozmagreed: im nto saying its the only thing
ozmagreed: but it's a factor
ozmagreed: and
ozmagreed: it even doesn't mean we shouldn't do it if it hurts the economy
ozmagreed: it probably hurts the economy to allow people the freedom to take vacation days from work
ozmagreed: but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed cheerily
xxxxxxx: Well
xxxxxxx: i didn't say an antiwar movement shouldn't be allowe
xxxxxxx: d
ozmagreed: i dont mean just allowed
ozmagreed: but embraced
xxxxxxx: Oh, well
xxxxxxx: not at all
ozmagreed: preventiojn of war is good
xxxxxxx: it should be scorned
ozmagreed: absolutely not
xxxxxxx: Nonsense.
ozmagreed: it is an important mitigating factor
xxxxxxx: prevention of war is not always good.
ozmagreed: yes it is
ozmagreed: sometimes you can't prevent it
ozmagreed: but if factors align to make war no longer necessary, that is always great
ozmagreed: if the entire baath party was captured and shipped to america
xxxxxxx: Yeah, taht would be great
ozmagreed: and all the WMDs in iraq were lifted up to heaven on a holy light
xxxxxxx: except that would never happen
ozmagreed: that would be stellar
ozmagreed: aha!
ozmagreed: exactly
xxxxxxx: and if it were up to anti-war people
xxxxxxx: it would NEVER happen
xxxxxxx: but war will make it happen.
ozmagreed: but
ozmagreed: the argument isn't that antiwar isn't good. it's that it sometimes doesn't work
xxxxxxx: my argument is that antiwar, at a time like this, is a danger to a country attempting to fight a unique, difficult, and dangerous war.
ozmagreed: so are civil liberties
ozmagreed: so are vacation days
ozmagreed: doesn't mean they ought to be stomped out
ozmagreed: and disparaged
xxxxxxx: Stomped out, no
xxxxxxx: Disparaged yet.
xxxxxxx: Just because you have an opinion
xxxxxxx: doesn't mean your opinion should be respected.
ozmagreed: agreed
ozmagreed: but
ozmagreed: this particular opinion
ozmagreed: is one that deserves respect
ozmagreed: even if not agreement
xxxxxxx: I disagree, on the grounds that whatever valid antiwar arguments there might be (and there are some) have been vastly overtaken by the more ludicrous and radical parts of the movement
xxxxxxx: so I don't just the antiwar movement by its saner elements, but by its most vocal and driving elements.
xxxxxxx: Judge instead of just
xxxxxxx: or, if this were an infocom game
ozmagreed: well, that's too bad, but i think people are not--or should not be--as simplistic as that
xxxxxxx: oops just judge
xxxxxxx: People are
xxxxxxx: which is why I have my opinion
ozmagreed: perhaps there is room for an interpretation of republicans as less than evil racists
xxxxxxx: b/c people ARE that simplistic and cling to that stuff.
ozmagreed: or, perhaps there isn't, and the complexities are not important
ozmagreed: too bad for people. can't change what's wrong and right based on them being stupid
xxxxxxx: Its like the old maxim
xxxxxxx: individuals are smart. Peope are stupid.
xxxxxxx: ah
xxxxxxx: well
xxxxxxx: no worries
xxxxxxx: China is saying that Iraq must comply with resolutions
xxxxxxx: the UN is officially going to hell
ozmagreed: why?
xxxxxxx: France is maintaining its anti-war stance
xxxxxxx: after Blix's report
xxxxxxx: so the US and UK will go without a "second resolution"
ozmagreed: france having a veto is so dumb
xxxxxxx: Well
xxxxxxx: really
xxxxxxx: think about it
xxxxxxx: all these fatuous anti-war protests
xxxxxxx: that would be diffused by a UN mandate
xxxxxxx: which would be nice since our troops are going in
xxxxxxx: well
xxxxxxx: now its all going to go to hell
xxxxxxx: b/c France has to be contrary.
ozmagreed: im going to the protest tomorrow in NYC i think
xxxxxxx: why
xxxxxxx: ?
ozmagreed: cause its cool
ozmagreed: why arent you going?
xxxxxxx: b/c its gay
ozmagreed: no its not
xxxxxxx: nor do I feel like throwing my weight behind the other movements that will be present and synonymous with peace like "Free Mumia" and "Nationalized Healthcare Now!"
ozmagreed: you dont think the republican party is gay because it has gay elements
ozmagreed: why is the antiwar movement any different?
xxxxxxx: B/c the antiwar movement is a mix of communists, socialists, ostrich-like idealists, and dopey-ass pacifists.
ozmagreed: the republican party is a mix of assholes, nazis, and shitheads
ozmagreed: every movement has its bad side
ozmagreed: and idealists and pacifists aren't "bad"
ozmagreed: objectively
ozmagreed: and arguably neither are socialists
xxxxxxx: this is why I seperated them
ozmagreed: separated them?
xxxxxxx: and they are bad when they get in the way of this country remaining focused on the fact we are at war. These are the same assholes that think we should have hugged afghanistans instead of bombing them.
xxxxxxx: (seperated as in said "socialists" and "idealists" as opposed to assuming one equalled the other)
ozmagreed: so you are on the side of the same assholes who tried to commit jewish genocide once
xxxxxxx: fascists are against the war, too
ozmagreed: haha NOWADAYS
ozmagreed: im saying
ozmagreed: you can't ascribe the more odious viewpoints of a group to the whole group necessarily
ozmagreed: and in concept, antiwar is a great thing
ozmagreed: just because it may or may not be appropriate for right now
ozmagreed: the motivations of many of them are suspect
ozmagreed: but
xxxxxxx: When it saps the national will in a time of war
xxxxxxx: it serves no good point.
ozmagreed: im not saying bush should not attack iraq "because it's about oil"
ozmagreed: even though it partially is
ozmagreed: that's a very nazi attitude to have
ozmagreed: literally
xxxxxxx: point in order - "antiwar" is what caused this whole UN vicious cycle to begin with
ozmagreed: not just nazi = bad
xxxxxxx: mainly
ozmagreed: like i usually use it
ozmagreed: no it's not
ozmagreed: anti-bush is
ozmagreed: anti-america is
ozmagreed: not anti-war
xxxxxxx: the 1991 resolution that said "liberate kuwait but DONT TOUCH HUSSEIN"
ozmagreed: you can't disparage or marginalize morally good viewpoints just because "we need to shape people's attitudes and these dissenters are screwing everything up"
xxxxxxx: In my life's experience, being anti-war (removing Hussein in 1991, Kosovo, now) means pushing for some half-assed or no-assed solution that makes problems worse
ozmagreed: if the country can't get it through their heads that certain things need to be done without brainwashing, we shouldn't be doing anything
ozmagreed: so war is ALWAYS the answer
ozmagreed: is what you're saying
ozmagreed: like, never NOT
xxxxxxx: War is not always the answer, but there's a difference between "anti-war" as in debating the issues
ozmagreed: you just said that antiwar is halfassed and makes things worse
ozmagreed: antiwar isn't just the non-debating, "won't take yes for an answer" facet
ozmagreed: of the movement
xxxxxxx: and anti-war movements which are just extremist demonstrations that weaken a national will
xxxxxxx: and maybe you are right
xxxxxxx: oh GAG
xxxxxxx: GAG
xxxxxxx: GAG
xxxxxxx: they just APPLAUDED
xxxxxxx: the French foreign minister
xxxxxxx: anyways back to my point
xxxxxxx: you may be right that antiwar serves a purpose on occasion
ozmagreed: the whole weakening a national will argument is lame
ozmagreed: less than lame
ozmagreed: you could make the same argument for Germany cracking down on people who spoke out against Hitler
xxxxxxx: yeah, except the government isn't cracking down
ozmagreed: and i dont think it is fair or right to equivocate American and Germany
xxxxxxx: on protestors
ozmagreed: so, the problem wasnt just the german govt cracking down
xxxxxxx: Well
ozmagreed: it was the shamefulness of the german people looking down on and persecuting those who disagreed as well
xxxxxxx: look at the adverse effect this movement is having on the economy, on people being able to handle what we are up against
ozmagreed: haha
ozmagreed: blaming the economy
ozmagreed: on this movement
xxxxxxx: This is a time when the country should be together, facing these problems. Instead you have a bunch of chicken littles
ozmagreed: is dumb
xxxxxxx: It's certainly a factor alex
ozmagreed: if america deserves to police the world, then it should be able to handle and embrace that shit
ozmagreed: so is bush's tax cut paul
ozmagreed: im nto saying its the only thing
ozmagreed: but it's a factor
ozmagreed: and
ozmagreed: it even doesn't mean we shouldn't do it if it hurts the economy
ozmagreed: it probably hurts the economy to allow people the freedom to take vacation days from work
ozmagreed: but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed cheerily
xxxxxxx: Well
xxxxxxx: i didn't say an antiwar movement shouldn't be allowe
xxxxxxx: d
ozmagreed: i dont mean just allowed
ozmagreed: but embraced
xxxxxxx: Oh, well
xxxxxxx: not at all
ozmagreed: preventiojn of war is good
xxxxxxx: it should be scorned
ozmagreed: absolutely not
xxxxxxx: Nonsense.
ozmagreed: it is an important mitigating factor
xxxxxxx: prevention of war is not always good.
ozmagreed: yes it is
ozmagreed: sometimes you can't prevent it
ozmagreed: but if factors align to make war no longer necessary, that is always great
ozmagreed: if the entire baath party was captured and shipped to america
xxxxxxx: Yeah, taht would be great
ozmagreed: and all the WMDs in iraq were lifted up to heaven on a holy light
xxxxxxx: except that would never happen
ozmagreed: that would be stellar
ozmagreed: aha!
ozmagreed: exactly
xxxxxxx: and if it were up to anti-war people
xxxxxxx: it would NEVER happen
xxxxxxx: but war will make it happen.
ozmagreed: but
ozmagreed: the argument isn't that antiwar isn't good. it's that it sometimes doesn't work
xxxxxxx: my argument is that antiwar, at a time like this, is a danger to a country attempting to fight a unique, difficult, and dangerous war.
ozmagreed: so are civil liberties
ozmagreed: so are vacation days
ozmagreed: doesn't mean they ought to be stomped out
ozmagreed: and disparaged
xxxxxxx: Stomped out, no
xxxxxxx: Disparaged yet.
xxxxxxx: Just because you have an opinion
xxxxxxx: doesn't mean your opinion should be respected.
ozmagreed: agreed
ozmagreed: but
ozmagreed: this particular opinion
ozmagreed: is one that deserves respect
ozmagreed: even if not agreement
xxxxxxx: I disagree, on the grounds that whatever valid antiwar arguments there might be (and there are some) have been vastly overtaken by the more ludicrous and radical parts of the movement
xxxxxxx: so I don't just the antiwar movement by its saner elements, but by its most vocal and driving elements.
xxxxxxx: Judge instead of just
xxxxxxx: or, if this were an infocom game
ozmagreed: well, that's too bad, but i think people are not--or should not be--as simplistic as that
xxxxxxx: oops just judge
xxxxxxx: People are
xxxxxxx: which is why I have my opinion
ozmagreed: perhaps there is room for an interpretation of republicans as less than evil racists
xxxxxxx: b/c people ARE that simplistic and cling to that stuff.
ozmagreed: or, perhaps there isn't, and the complexities are not important
ozmagreed: too bad for people. can't change what's wrong and right based on them being stupid
xxxxxxx: Its like the old maxim
xxxxxxx: individuals are smart. Peope are stupid.
xxxxxxx: ah
xxxxxxx: well
xxxxxxx: no worries
xxxxxxx: China is saying that Iraq must comply with resolutions
