bands changing a mix

Fragle

Fragle

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Jul 27, 2005
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so you're finished mixing a band, sending them the mixes, and they're asking for changes that, in your opinion, are totally unnecessary and uncalled for.

i mean, you're sending out the mixes for a reason....you think that this is how the band should sound, paid a great deal of attention to details such as vocal levels, effects, automation in general etc, and all of a sudden the band wants e.g. the vocals to be louder even though you've checked the stuff on many systems and made sure the vocals are intelligeble without overpowering anything.

anyone been in that situation before? how do you deal with it?

i guess at the end of the day the band is the one who makes the final calls, but still, don't you think that the audio engineer knows his system well, and knows how it'll translate to other systems, and now you're requested to change that based on what it sounded like on shit speakers to someone who doesn't know how to listen to details and balances?

sorry for the rant...i'm just fed up with bands asking for unnecessary changes.
 
just make your customers happy. if they feel that their vocalist should be louder than turn it up.
they are paying so why do not make them happy?
 
post it here and see if anyone thinks you should raise the vocal level. perhaps also you could try some different eq to make the vocals pop out of the mix more instead of bringing the level up. its tough to say without hearing it.

oh, and make sure you tell them that any changes you make to this mix will be the final changes, so they need to be sure that is what they want. that way you don't end up remixing it 20 times over.
 
My three rules for bands listening to mixes:

1. If you don't hear something wrong with the mix the first 1 or 2 times you hear it, nothing is wrong. This prevents bands from listening to the mix 500 times looking for something to change.

2. No one can ask for changes to their own instrument - so the guitar can't ask for louder guitars, the drummer can't ask for more snare, etc. This helps everyone listen for the big picture.

3. The whole band must agree on any changes. If the whole band doesn't agree on something, it's my decision whether or not to implement the change.
 
At the end of the day it's the band who are paying at the end of the day. Some guys like the vocals to be a bit more upfront than others.

Just make sure that it's the whole band that want the vocals up and not just the vocalist!
 
I've had plenty of guys like this. Best to make clear the rules beforehand without frightening them off. Maybe bounce two versions if it's a single song. One your way/One theirs. Can be time-consuming though...and only if you're feeling generous :D Just let them know what the consequences might be. They are paying but yeah, it is your reputation so it's a tough call. This is why I decided i'd only record and mix my own stuff instead of dealing with idiots.
 
If you're producing, it should be your decision. If you're "just" mixing: Voice your concerns, strongly, then do what the producer(s) ask you to do (within sensible limits of course) - that's what they pay you for. If you think the altered version will tarnish your reputation: Ask to be not publicly associated with it. The latter will also really make them think about their decision to alter the mix. ;)
 
robfromthedeep said:
Its still giving your name a bad rep though
Click to expand...

You know I used to think that. But in reality, this business is all about word of mouth. So I would rather compromise my vision of the sonic package and have the band be super excited and share their awesome experience. Otherwise you get a band who complains, no matter if the sonics are good or not, and that is way way worse for your "name."

Producer or Engineer or some bizarre combination thereof, your job is to help the artist achieve their vision. Your job is to represent and potentially enhance the emotion and feeling and vision of the song.

Yeah they may not have "trained" ears or whatever, but reality is, they do listen to music and they know their songs. And it is all subjective anyway. In the end, some level being a touch hotter than others isn't going to matter.

Typically I do my version which is most of the main dialing and problem solving. Then I prefer to have them in the studio for their version sort of speak. Which gets levels right, fixes other problems they hear. I like having them there since I can show them potential issues and different techniques to try to solve it. Sometimes they have to live with it.

Then I do one more revision on top of that mainly for the last 5% or so. Often the bands suggestions got them closer, but often is a bit of an overshoot.

I mean everyone has different ears, and 99.99% of people are going to hear the band, not the production. And it is the band that is choosing their representation, so it is their call in the end, every time. Sometimes yeah it may be the label or something as well, but if the bands don't like it, they will bitch and spread bad news about it. And people are heavily influenced by other people, so even if it sounds solid... if you are told "check out how crappy this is" before you even listen, it is going to change your perspective and judgement.

Now also it is up to you to meet the bands demands without destroying the sonic integrity. So they want vocals a bit "louder." So you may have to work with them to see if they like the vocals on-top of the mix or within the mix. Maybe instead of just turning them up, try some EQ tweaks to have it be more forward.

I tend to work with bands that prefer to bury the vocals and want them way back compared to where I like them. But for their style, that is the way things go. So it is such a balance of coaching, teaching, therapy, etc. but really it is listening. And a lot of it to the bands. Every band I work with I learn something about production, from the experienced to the total Noob band. Every band is different and it would be extremely boring if I was just turning the knobs to meet the same formula every time.

My favorite thing in the studio is when the band is just lit up and loving what they are hearing and going "that is us?? no way! that sounds awesome!" Then what I think really doesn't matter.
 
robfromthedeep said:
Its still giving your name a bad rep though
Click to expand...

No it's not.

In fact if anything it's a good thing because:

A: Who the fuck cares what other engineers think. Most of the people that listen to your stuff have no idea how to mix or why something is bad. They only know when something is REALLY bad, and that's obviously not the status quo for most people. Bumping the vocals up a tad isn't the end of the world. Plus in my experience as someone who generally enjoys listening to music for the sake of enjoying some music, most people don't give a shit if the bass is a little loud or the vocals are loud or the guitars are super in yo face.

B: The band doesn't walk away all butt hurt that you butted heads with them over something stupid and in turn bad mouths your stubborn ass out of business. :lol:
 
Shoot I just did a project where I hated my mix (rushed) and hated the mastering even more (done out of house, contracted by the band and done to loud for my tastes).

Doesn't fucking matter though because I got 2 new bands off that recording (just from word of mouth) and that record had the band happier than a pig in shit.
 
slashvanyoung said:
If you're producing, it should be your decision.
Click to expand...

Again, no can't agree with this. Why? Because it's only your decision if the band makes it your decision.

Seriously would you be ok with a subcontractor in your home putting down white tile because he thinks it looks better when you asked for beige?

How about a florist giving you white roses instead of red for valentines day because she thought that was a better choice?

Lots of compromise in recordings (on both sides), better learn to live with it sooner than later.
 
after listening to your mix, the vocals seem to be at a good overall level, perhaps use a little bit more compression/limiting on them to level them out a bit more, could add a little distortion to them too.

also, ree reee reeeeeee reee ree reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
 
paladin shredder said:
after listening to your mix, the vocals seem to be at a good overall level, perhaps use a little bit more compression/limiting on them to level them out a bit more, could add a little distortion to them too.

also, ree reee reeeeeee reee ree reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Click to expand...

vox are pretty smashed and automated already. iirc there's 15db GR going on at some places. vox have saturation on them, but i steered clear from obvious distortion on this song as there are 2 vocal parts in other songs that are distorted to hell and back, didn't want to use the effect very often.

btw, i'm loving that shit, they're one of my favorite local bands. always killing it live :headbang:
especially the solo growl at the start of the final slam, that whole section is awesome.
actually the biggest issue with that mix seems to be the papery snare, but there's not a whole lot that i can change. all natural snare, and it just wasn't tuned the way it should be. too low. i might try to bump up the snare top and maybe blend in a sample of that snare taken from the count in, eq that and try to get some grindcore like ring out of it.
 
Hot mixer deal with same problem, and for quote Andy Wallace:

What has been your most difficult moment in a recording studio?
It's difficult for me when I have a mix that I know is sounding good and the artist and the producer, or whoever is
appropriate, starts getting too involved in little things that really don't make a big difference; they're not making a
better mix out of it, they're just changing things. I don't mind that to a point, but if it gets almost endless — you know,
where they just can't let go and need to keep changing things — then I feel like I'm just doing damage control, trying to
keep the thing from eroding. Sometimes that'll happen. They'll ask me, “What do you think?” and I'll say, “I liked the way
it was when I played it for you; otherwise, I wouldn't have played it.” Is it possible to make some changes to it without
my hating it? Sure. Are any of the changes you're making, in my estimation, making it any better? No. And, collectively,
when you keep doing it, sooner or later we're going to get past where we are. So that's always difficult when I get into a
situation like that where it's getting overboard.
Click to expand...
 
Fragle - I feel your pain mate. Im a working illustrator/comicbook artist and seeming unnecessary last minute requests/changes by the client can definitely be a real pain in the ass. Often in hindsight through you realise they were right, but you just couldnt see the forest for the trees at the time.

FWIW I took a listen to your mix in the other thread and my 2c - vocals could be a tad louder. Theyre a little too buried in the mix IMO.
 
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