Bass / Guitar Balance

[J.Lindmann]

Hi there,

I've got one issue which is bugging me for a long time now.
And that is the low-end battle between the bass guitar and the rhythm guitars.
In other words:
How fat/thick/low-endy should the rhythm guitars be?

In my case there will be double tracked, mostly mid-tempo, drop-A guitars, re-amped through a Bugera 6260, which I will reamp in a couple of weeks.
Style is: Deathmetal/Deathcore

In the past I had always problems finding the right amount of guitar low-end.
I tend to record the re-amped guitars rather mid-scooped and then EQ it to taste (especially the obvious low-mid area and the surgical 2 kHz cuts).
That way it sounds soloed pretty awesome to me.
On the other hand, I often read on forums that too much low-end on guitars is a typical beginners mistake.

To get an idea, how much low-end is ideal, I was looking for short parts in professional records where the rhythm guitar is playing solo (you know...these 2 Seconds before a breakdown or so).
When I put these through an analyzer the results show most of the time a pretty massive (loud) low-end which makes me doubt that this was really a soloed guitar or if lowend-boosting-automation took place in this solo-riff.
So that I can't really use my analyzer results.

So what I ask is, if someone could post a snipped of a mix that sounds good to him/her (ha ha any females here?) and as well the according solo bass and guitar tracks. I think that could help me or other beginners a lot.

Don't get me wrong, I don't wanna copy any sounds, especially because it always depends on the song, but I'd like to see a starting point which gets me in the ballpark at least.

Thanks in advance!
JL

 

[ArthurD]

Check some guitar hero/ rock band stems.

for exemple

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

Holy shit I've been looking for good metal bass stems for like 6 months. HRRNNGHHHHHHH

 

[crillemannen]

For metal i'd say the bass should act more as support to the guitars oppose to rock where the bass really can drive the whole mix (see Lord-algea mixes). Cause the focus should be on the guitars. And keep in mind that the bass distortion affect the guitars in a big way. So try to pocket the bass guitar with the guitars.

And for the lowend, you should really treat the kick,bass and guitars as a unit around 100-250hz. If you'd find the guitar and bass sound awesome soloed together but in the mix they sound to bassy then the source to the problem is probably somewhere else --> see the kickdrum. IT is really hard to get that lowend thump right but finding the balance between those 3 is probably the key.

 

[DanLights]

It also depends if the bass is copying the guitar lines or doing something different, I think the amount of distorsion and pocketing you need varies a lot because of that.

It's amazing how little low end the guitars on Nemesis have, and how it's the bass that's really filling it up.

 

[J.Lindmann]

Check some guitar hero/ rock band stems.
for exemple

Awesome...thanks!

Cause the focus should be on the guitars.

What does this mean?
For example the 180 - 600 Hz area (where the kick is out of the discussion):
Shall I leave the miced guitar untouched there (except for resonances and mud reduction) and shall cut mainly the bass-guitar until it sounds well-balanced?

 

[J.Lindmann]

It also depends if the bass is copying the guitar lines or doing something different, I think the amount of distorsion and pocketing you need varies a lot because of that.

Since my project has both this may result in an automation-rollercoaser
But I think about scrating a seperate bass-track for the parts where the bass is not copying the guitars. In those parts I's like to have the bass more audible.

 

[crillemannen]

Awesome...thanks!


What does this mean?
For example the 180 - 300 Hz area (where the kick is out of the discussion):
Shall I leave the miced guitar untouched there (except resonances and mud reduction) and shall cut mainly the bass-guitar until it sounds well-balanced?

Well what i meant is that how you decide to eq the guitars/bass you can make one of them more upfront in the mix. Leaving allot at 1.5-2khz in the bass guitar will make it stick out more in the mix, while the opposite will make room for the guitars. The same goes for the area around 100-200hz. Like i said in rock the bass usually drives the music and the guitars are quite thin and don't have much lowend at all.

It's all about what you want to achieve but metal usually demands meaty guitars which is the nemesis to separation, and usually good nice distorted bass!

 

[J.Lindmann]

which is the nemesis to separation, and usually good nice distorted bass!

OK I understand this point.
That's easy (no the separation is not, but to understand the necessity is)
But:

but metal usually demands meaty guitars

This would make me think: "Don't leave your guitars too thin, leave only the real lows to the bass"
But then I often read that guitars are suprisingly thin.
Example needed?

It's amazing how little low end the guitars on Nemesis have

So this is always confusing me.
Thin or thick? Where is the best relation?
That's why I was looking for Example Guitar and Bass Tracks.

 

[MultiM]

Using a multiband compressor on the low-end of the guitar can do wonders, for me I don't cut too much low-end on guitar, but instead I use a multiband compressor. It's another way to control the low-end of the guitar instead of just cutting it. Multi band compressor is useful in the low-mid area too.

 

[J.Lindmann]

Using a multiband compressor on the low-end of the guitar can do wonders, for me I don't cut too much low-end on guitar, but instead I use a multiband compressor. It's another way to control the low-end of the guitar instead of just cutting it. Multi band compressor is useful in the low-mid area too.

You mean in order to leave the open notes untouched but to cut the low end in the palm mutes?
Yeah that makes sense to me.

 

[cobhc]

In the past I had always problems finding the right amount of guitar low-end.
I tend to record the re-amped guitars rather mid-scooped and then EQ it to taste (especially the obvious low-mid area and the surgical 2 kHz cuts).
That way it sounds soloed pretty awesome to me.

That's part of your problem there. You're making it sound awesome to you when it's soloed, but it won't be soloed. You need to work on tones that fit in the mix pretty well from just the raw miked tracks. And then use some eq to make it fit even nicer.

 

[ArthurD]

I would go easy on bass.
I split the bass in 2 or 3 tracks.
The first track is a Low end track. I Low pass it until only lows are heard. Then I ride the faders until the lows are flat (all notes at same volume). Next I compress (post fader) a bit. Hipass this to take out the unperceived bass (use subwoofer or headphones).
On the other track I distort and hipass to tame out the lows.
Send both tracks to a bus. Next I would compress with distressor and eq softly (while running guitars, kick and snare).
Profit

 

[crillemannen]

That's part of your problem there. You're making it sound awesome to you when it's soloed, but it won't be soloed. You need to work on tones that fit in the mix pretty well from just the raw miked tracks. And then use some eq to make it fit even nicer.

I know its a common statement but i kinda disagree with that. It can sound good solo'ed but as I said before you should treat the kick/guitars/bass as one when it comes to the lowend.

But then ofc you perhaps need to compromise and the guitars for instance usually ends up thinner then what you might expected from the start.

 

[cobhc]

I know its a common statement but i kinda disagree with that. It can sound good solo'ed but as I said before you should treat the kick/guitars/bass as one when it comes to the lowend.

But then ofc you perhaps need to compromise and the guitars for instance usually ends up thinner then what you might expected from the start.

I'm not saying it can't sound good soloed, just that you need to work on tones that fit in the mix as a priority and if they sound nice soloed as well, then it's a bonus

 

[Ermz]

It tends to depend on individual preference and what the mix at hand calls for. I've noticed over time that Sneap's guitar tones have had more and more low energy, so it's not necessarily like Doomsday Machine anymore.

The easiest way to begin is by over-filtering the guitars. Really clamp down on the low-end, so that there's barely any excursion beneath 90Hz, and really hammer down on the stuff around 200Hz too. Get it to a point where the guitars sound kinda unimpressive by themselves (but not completely filtered, like a shitty radio sound). Then engage the bass, and mix it so that it is tight yet meaty. This will allow you to hear the interaction between the two. Once you're happy with what the bass is doing, mess around by easing off the filtering and cutting on the guitars, so that they develop more thump across the bottom end. Find out for yourself how much crossover you want there. Each project is different - each style of playing begs for different balances.

 

[Cephara]

Bass is generally a very dynamic instrument, but for metal you want to do everything in your power to make it a constant powerful presence to complement the entire mix, not just the rhythm guitars. I found the best approach for my last song I tracked was: squash the bass to a constant volume like normal, eq not to interfere with the kick drum (let kick take ~40-65hz & ~3Khz), and to EQ/Normalize to the guitars during the chorus until i found a sound that worked well (assuming the chorus is full of 5 chords). After I find a chorus i find that really sings, I'll tweak as necessary.

I don't EQ guitars before the chorus for a good reason; they usually the weakest presence there (in metal anyway). Once you find a chorus that sounds good to your ear, you might find that the rest of the song clashes with each other. I will either use a multi-band compressor like Wave's C4 or T-Rack's Quad-Comp (lower latency) to tame the 60-300hz range during palm mutes to tame the low end resonance palm mutes introduce, or my more favorable approach, sweep the low end with EQ (linear phase EQs can't work better in some cases) for a resonance that I find overbearing on the bass and guitar buss (or each individual track). If I use the latter approach, I will apply a plugin to the bass track/bus like Wave's RBass or MaxBass to provid more presence. I hope you find this information helpful as i have struggled with this for years. Metal isn't metal with out bass. Check out my latest track on my signature below which is a completely on mixed track with no automations, or share your own so this great community can provide more detailed feedback.

 

[J.Lindmann]

By the way: I asked SPAN about the Arch enemy guitar and bass tracks.
Thats what it answered:

I was really suprised how close bass and guitar are together by means of low-end separation.
While the bass has its 100 Hz bump, the guitars have theirs at 130 Hz.
That's closer than I would have thougt it would be.

 

[Cephara]

Literal spectrum analysis doesn't always show overbearing audible detection. It depends on the medium response. My mixing headphones, mixing monitors, my home theater, my gaming pc speakers, my car stereo don't respond the same. Challenge your mix against some of them if you feel uncertain.

I can cut just a small fraction of a spectrum by 12db but it won't show up on the graph.

 

[He's Dead, Jim]

By the way: I asked SPAN about the Arch enemy guitar and bass tracks.
Thats what it answered:

I was really suprised how close bass and guitar are together by means of low-end separation.
While the bass has its 100 Hz bump, the guitars have theirs at 130 Hz.
That's closer than I would have thougt it would be.

Thanks for the pics- I know it's kind of cheating, but that's really helpful