Beauty

[speed]

What is Beauty? How would one define it? Should it be appreciated and worshipped as an ideal? Is it merely nature? Is it as much a curse upon a person considered beautiful than it is a benefit?

Just a few questions I would like to propose.

 

[kmik]

Well, when you say that this butterfly or tree is beautiful it's not the same as saying that a girl is beautiful. I think that due to evolutionary reasons we think athletic and healthy people are more beautiful than others (if that wasn't the case than inadequate individuals would breed more than others). But there are also social reasons for that. Fashions change all the time and from place to place, of course. Though in general all humans around the world will agree that Marilyn Monroe is beautiful and a random ugly guy isn't, so it must be genetic in some way. I guess we like symmetry. (contrary to popular belief, though, the golden ratio doesn't play a role in the human perception of beauty)

 

[NeverIsForever]

I agree that our perception of beauty is probably an evolutionary mechanism to ensure that the best and healthiest examples of a species are the ones that pass on their genetic material. However, if this is the case then it's not so important now as it was, say, a thousand years ago. Medical care/corrective surgeries/etc. have put people on much more equal footing, physically speaking.

And I really think that we've taken the whole "beauty" thing too far, to the point where those who are considered "beautiful" are not necessarily best suited to reproduce. Stick-thin models who are barely nourished themselves may be idolized in magazines, but their (nearly nonexistent) eating habits would make it difficult to properly support a growing baby's nutritional needs during pregnancy. It runs contrary to everything seen in nature, where many animals store fat for weeks or months before beginning a pregnancy so that they will bear healthy offspring.

This is probably turning into a rant, but I also think that our society's ingrained stereotypes of what constitutes "beauty" are very damaging to the children being reared in such an environment. I was at work today (I work part-time in a fast-food restaurant) and this little girl came up to the counter with her dad, who offered to buy her an ice cream cone. She said, "no, if I eat ice cream I'll get fat" and ordered a diet Coke instead.

The girl was maybe eight years old. If that...And already worried about her weight! How messed-up is that??? And it really hit home for me, because I know the feeling. I had issues with self-esteem in elementary school that eventually led me to anorexia in middle school. (Thankfully I'm past that and have gotten to the point where I'm more or less comfortable with who I am. I still care what other people think about me, but not to the point where I'm going to cease eating in order to gain approval.) My point is, this to me is an indicator of the kind of messages being sent to the kids of today. I'm guessing this goes for boys as well as girls, though maybe to a slightly lesser extent for boys? But at the rate we're going, we'll be the EDO generation because by today's definitions, being thin is an integral part of being attractive.

 

[Kenneth R.]

to me, beauty is like music. it is the dissonance and harmony of a dance of life that resonates like a ripple in a pond. this sounds abstract, but really there is no dictionary definition fitting for beauty. i recognize beauty as this dance, in order and disorder, nearly perfect balance of being. it has little to do with visual appearance, it is so much more.

 

[SoundMaster]

= I was at work today (I work part-time in a fast-food restaurant) and this little girl came up to the counter with her dad, who offered to buy her an ice cream cone. She said, "no, if I eat ice cream I'll get fat" and ordered a diet Coke instead.
.

Is that really a bad thing? Every time my wife drags me to a mall (oh brother!), I'm more and more amazed at how fat the average child is. When I was a teen (and pre-teen) we were NO where near as obese.

Better to be concerned with your figure - even at the age of 8 - than to not care at all.

And, is society's view of weight an aberation? Or, as you stated, is it a by-product of our evolutionary past? I think it's part of us. "Society" doesn't dictate what weight we find agreeable. Rather, our
humanity dictates what society finds appealing. Chicken or egg, I guess.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i disagree. humanity has been led astray by society further and further as of late.

the concept of beauty has been reduced to what is appealing sexually or cosmetically instead of what the word was invented to signify, just as the word Love has been reduced to similar base notions.

 

[NeverIsForever]

Is that really a bad thing? Every time my wife drags me to a mall (oh brother!), I'm more and more amazed at how fat the average child is. When I was a teen (and pre-teen) we were NO where near as obese.

Better to be concerned with your figure - even at the age of 8 - than to not care at all.

I agree that obesity is a greater problem now than it has been in the past, but still I could not disagree more completely with the rest of your logic. I don't think an 8-year-old should be worrying about her weight under any circumstances. Childhood is supposed to be happy and carefree. Incidentally, this little girl was too thin if anything. Maybe I'm just overreacting because of my own experiences with this, but I'd hate to see her get a few years older and be like I was. Disordered eating is not an easy thing to get past--once you're there, it tends to stay with you.

 

[Demiurge]

Is that really a bad thing? Every time my wife drags me to a mall (oh brother!), I'm more and more amazed at how fat the average child is. When I was a teen (and pre-teen) we were NO where near as obese.

Better to be concerned with your figure - even at the age of 8 - than to not care at all.

And, is society's view of weight an aberation? Or, as you stated, is it a by-product of our evolutionary past? I think it's part of us. "Society" doesn't dictate what weight we find agreeable. Rather, our
humanity dictates what society finds appealing. Chicken or egg, I guess.

No, society dictates it. Hence, chubby people were more attractive than the very thin in the 1930s. There are plenty of major differences in what is attractive from culture to culture and time frame to time frame that are more extreme than that, too. There are probably certain base ideals like being disfigured isn't attractive, but even that doesn't hold universally.

 

[SoundMaster]

i disagree. humanity has been led astray by society further and further as of late.

the concept of beauty has been reduced to what is appealing sexually

This is how it's always been. For thousands of years....

 

[SoundMaster]

No, society dictates it. Hence, chubby people were more attractive than the very thin in the 1930s. There are plenty of major differences in what is attractive from culture to culture and time frame to time frame that are more extreme than that, too. There are probably certain base ideals like being disfigured isn't attractive, but even that doesn't hold universally.

Overall, however, most (but not all, of course) societies have always favored thin females, as opposed to fat, for example.
What you speak of are trends - abberations, in fact.

Again, our nature is what it is. Ask yourself this:
why would "society" tend to favor thin as opposed to fat? Our inherant nature dictates what we describe as beutiful, not some advertising campaign.

In fact, advertisers study this and utilize it.

 

[no country for old wainds]

It's a combination, I should imagine. But both society and nature are likely to favour that which is healthy - not being fat.

 

[SoundMaster]

I don't think an 8-year-old should be worrying about her weight under any circumstances. Childhood is supposed to be happy and carefree.

You're right, actually.
8 year-olds should NOT be thinking as such.

With that said, the West - particularly America and Germany are stuck by a health crisis in obesity. It's a greater problem than people think. It seems to me that people tend NOT to take it seriously because "fat is funny" or some such nonsense.

 

[SoundMaster]

It's a combination, I should imagine. But both society and nature are likely to favour that which is healthy - not being fat.

But what is at the root of what we call "society"?
Is it not but an organized reflection of base-level humanity?

And - let me be clear - base level humanity is not total anarchy as some would have you believe. If it WAS, societies would never have developed and evolved into what they are today.

 

[Demiurge]

There is no rigidly defined base level. This is evidenced by radically different views on politics, ethics, even beauty. History quickly defeats the idea that such a thing exists. Even rudimentary knowledge of the matter indicates that if there was such a base level, historical development would have been more steady.

From a strictly evolutionary perspective, we are aberrations. An athletic build is healthier than a stick-thin one.

 

[Kenneth R.]

This is how it's always been. For thousands of years....

no, it really isn't.

 

[Kenneth R.]

Overall, however, most (but not all, of course) societies have always favored thin females, as opposed to fat, for example.
What you speak of are trends - abberations, in fact.

Again, our nature is what it is. Ask yourself this:
why would "society" tend to favor thin as opposed to fat? Our inherant nature dictates what we describe as beutiful, not some advertising campaign.

In fact, advertisers study this and utilize it.

well then my nature is inhumane according to your logic, because i dislike the advertisement models, and women who are that thin. it disgusts me. there is a middle ground, and that is what healthy is.

 

[speed]

Lets just say Beauty is what each culture and time thinks it is. This is true of almost everything; there are no Hegelian historical mysteries or certainties.

Today, beauty in America is thin, proportioned, superficial, vacous, part of a clique, sexual, and entirely without meaning. Of course isnt this eveyones ideal? To be lost in life, expecting nothing, thinking nothing, and wanting only better abs? How envious I am of today's beauty!

 

[Kenneth R.]

again i strongly disagree. beauty is as i have stated, a societally-corrupted ideal. i maintain that the original and true meaning of the idea is unrelated to what it has now come to signify to the masses.

 

[SoundMaster]

again i strongly disagree. beauty is as i have stated, a societally-corrupted ideal. i maintain that the original and true meaning of the idea is unrelated to what it has now come to signify to the masses.

Then perhaps you can reveal to us all what beauty is, before this corruption you speak of?

Indulge us.

 

[Kenneth R.]

i already explained...