Burn Baby Burn! Downloading Inferno!

[DBB]

GO, DOWNLOAD, and BURN!

GO, DOWNLOAD, and BURN II

File Downloading and Our Perverted Morals: A Rebuttal

 

[Helm]

Interesting discussion, though I will admit I've skimmed over the articles once I had a fairly good idea what they were about, since I am aware of the reality of the situation from both sides of the argument and do not desire to hear specific tales of mail-order woe. I've had to wait for Hellion to send me records for 6 months, I know how it is.


LotFP has a certain stance on the subject that is very clear as well. It is not a stance I endorse, and I believe it to rest on some unsafe assumptions.


I personally have a very specific method about these things. I've digitized all of my cds and some records (a very large number of purchases over 9 years of avid metal listening... that was about 4 years ago so there's the math of it) mainly because of ease-of-use. This doesn't stop me from looking at the cover-art or reading the lyrics of a release I like (the "complete experience"), or anything similar that is often assumed. I also download a lot of music, both for want of more good metal (primarily), and to keep informed of what's going on (quite secondarily). From the bulk of the downloaded material, I eventually keep only a very small percentage, and it is usually on a to-buy list.

My method is very darwinian, I am not a collector. I don't want to be an overconsumer either. I've decided that I do not need more than x number of gigabytes of music in my life, and that if I am to find something extremely good, it should take the place of the least good stuff left on my files. Think of this as someone having very limited physical shelf-space. This method works very well for me because I am forced to listen very critically and not collect junk. When I find something I really really like, I do purchase - often directly - if only to support the artists. It is often the case that the recieved cds are never put into a CD player at all. This comes down to listening to about 20 new albums a month, and buying about 0.5 of them. I really think there aren't more than 6 new Heavy Metal records a year that warrant purchase, so that's fine with me.

I believe file-sharing does not necessarily lead to the cheapening of the experience as LotFP does, nor do I feel one should pay for music he might fleetingly enjoy, but only for that music which has an enduring positive effect on them. I do not view Heavy Metal as hamburgers, in that if you eat one, you have to buy it, regardless of whether it might give you a dreadful case of stomachache before it is violently released from your system (as most Heavy Metal). File-sharing makes overconsumption of entertainment a very real possibility, and overconsumption generally is a very real trait of the modern world. However it is the trend itself I condemn and not the practises (file-sharing) themselves, given that one could - as I do - approach the model responsively and with self-restraint.

I am also amused by the 'it's a crime' approach. I don't know exactly what to say to that, I am not sure what to say to a person that is so condescending that he assumes he's going to lay down the truth on me, and once I know the truth I'll repent in everlasting lament by not breaking the law anymore. If a law is flawed (as copyright laws can often be argued to be) then expect it to be broken lots. What does a society do instead of patronising its citizents with 'it's the law, I am the law!' knee-jerks? It adapts.

I believe in the future file-sharing will become the only viable method of selling art such as heavy metal, and that instead of being reactionary and clinging to our cds, so to speak, we should be more open to discussing a positive way to embrace this practise. After all, once we enter in that sort of discussion, there are very many aspects that could be considered very positive (like oh, directly paying the artist a smaller sum than a record company would ever ask, and one that will reach the artist in full) for the future of Heavy Metal.

 

[Jim LotFP]

I just want to know where this guy is ordering from to have so many problems with mail-order. I've placed I don't know how many orders with dozens of companies in the past 10 years, and I can only recall two orders that gave me problems. He's greatly exaggerating a problem to make his point.

As for file-sharing, I've wasted enough energy screaming about it. I backed off of the "It's illegal!" thing once I realized that the steps necessary to detect and enforce it are things I don't believe the government should be doing, so that's gone. Yeah, I could download whatever, but I don't even have a job or a credit card and I'm buying more albums than I should. I can already get everything I want. The only reason to download would be to assume entitlement to the work of others. I take the easy way out far too often and struggle with why I can't be the person I want to be when it comes to so many fucking things in my life... but I won't let that come anywhere near my passions.

 

[Helm]

Yeah, I could download whatever, but I don't even have a job or a credit card and I'm buying more albums than I should. I can already get everything I want.

I don't know what sort of deal you have with the devil that allows you to not have a job but still buy more albums than you should, but it's a very real situation for most people, myself included, that we have limited funds and therefore cannot waste them in bad metal. So what can I do? I listen to things before I buy them. More than once. If it's good and it stands the test of repeated listens, I will spend some of my budget for it.

Is this something to scream about? Does it necessarily have to slippery-slope right down to the media-addict that has 30,000 albums downloaded and listens to exactly none of them twice?

 

[Jim LotFP]

I don't know what sort of deal you have with the devil that allows you to not have a job but still buy more albums than you should

This isn't as impressive as it seems.

I buy old shit, which generally costs much less than the current shit, and I buy independent shit from the source, which generally costs less than stuff on labels going through distributors.

I'd thinking buying more than one album a week is excessive, but if someone with regular computer access can't scrape 10€ (or $10) a week together to afford two or three albums (more if you go bargain hunting) a month, the problem isn't available money, it's budgeting.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I can only confirm that most mailorders make for a positive experience. I've never been cheated on, even when buying from Japanese and Brazilian people (Marquee Records I'd recommend, cheap and fast, and no bootlegs as you might think when it comes to South America). I still cannot understand why people complain about limited funds when they are chain smokers or invest in entertainment gear and geek gadgets on a regular basis. I'd say: only vintage 80s console gaming is metal, and cellphones are not and will never be...

 

[Helm]

This isn't as impressive as it seems.

What? To not end up with negative income if you have no job and feeding a metalhead passion? I think it's very impressive. I think it's sorcery, in fact.

Consider that I bought about 700 cds and records in a narrow 9 year period (from 10 to 19) using my fathers' money... when I got a low-paying job doing comics and went all 'dad, you don't have to provide for me' I barely made my basic expenses with the art money. I don't smoke, I don't have to feed any addictions, I don't have any extravagant hobbies, no cellphone, no living expenses besides food and board... it's just comics - which pay for themselves - and metal -which seriously does not.

This all fed towards my understanding that I have bought enough CDs for a lifetime, I have made enough record companies happy with my extravagant purchases, from now on I will find a way to listen to a wide selection of music before I make my narrow selection of purchase. It's not unreasonable. That it turns out there really isn't so many worthwhile releases each year was purely coincidental - and difficult for a metalhead to come to terms with "what the heck, most metal sucks?!" - but befitting of my choice.

 

[skeptik]

You can only find about half a dozen new albums worthy of purchase a year? I have to say that I'm a bit sorry for you.

My feelings on downloading are mixed. I don't care that downloading is OMG ILLEGAL. What concerns me is that it's wrong, in the sense that it is stealing. It is obtaining a good that one would normally pay for by not paying for it but rather pirating it. Yet, still, I don't have a problem even with this as long as it is used responsibly, by using it as a tool to evaluating a product and then deciding whether or not to purchase it, and then dumping the files. I do feel that this zaps the whole buying experience of a bit of its "magic," so to speak, but that is a personal thing.

My qualm seems to be with two types of people: 1) those who download amply with no intent to repay, and 2) those who are open and brash about it. I think the first group is easily enough understood, that they are mere leeches stealing music that they do not posess the rights to be listening to, but the second group may seem a bit petty. And I do agree that it is a bit petty. But I can't help the fact that people who make it a point to let you know how awesome Dimmu Borgir's In Sorte Diaboli is 3 weeks before one could possibly find it in stores, who post threads linking to megauploads of a .rar file for the latest Exodus album, who boast about owning so many albums...on mp3...annoy the shit out of me.

 

[Helm]

You can only find about half a dozen new albums worthy of purchase a year? I have to say that I'm a bit sorry for you.

Could you please expand on that notion a bit?

 

[J.]

To this day, this argument still entertains me. If only because I get to read more and more justifications by pseudo music fans like that "EC" to NOT buy the physical media.

Like Jim said, I'd like to know what webstores this guy shops. The few he does mention, I've never heard of. Who still pays $35 for an import? Then he bitches about having to wait for the album to justify downloading. In response, he checks local stores. Then he bitches about the cost. This guy lives in fantasy camp.

The best part was when he writes "Do I simply sit on my hands and wait until K-Mart or Best Buy finally gets the German import to arrive at their store or do I GO....DOWNLOAD....BURN and enjoy the band, enjoy the music, share my thoughts with the metal community, support the band by going to shows, and simply wait for the official CD?"

First off, who buys metal CDs at K-Mart and Best Buy? I've never even known these stores to get "German imports". Second, what if the band never plays a show in the vicinity of this hack? Sorry, no support. Where he ventures into the unforgivable is justifying downloading so he can "share my thoughts with the metal community". Sure guy.

Who is he trying to convince?

As for solutions, here's one: Download the album, then send $10 straight to the band. That way, you've supported the band that you more or less stole from, and you've got media the band worked to release. Win/Win.

Even if Mr. EC is too cheap to do that, the least he can do is support legal downloading services. Somehow, I doubt he is.

The second guy pretty much nailed it with this: "And finally, if no other point has pierced our stubborn hearts, let us ask how we can justify our theft to the artists themselves. Though some musicians have offered up their music for download, they are the exception and far from the standard. For the majority of musicians, seeing their music leaked out onto the internet before its official release, before its mixing, before its mastering, is a frustrating and humbling experience. We cannot in good conscience claim one moment to respect deeply these artists and the next moment deliberately flout their wishes. And we think ourselves worthy to quote their lyrics, wear their merchandise, and even get tattoos of their logos? For all the respect we show them in the end, a better example of our true disposition would be to spit directly into their face."

In short, fuckoff downloaders.

 

[Fando]

Are ya‘ll as viciously against tape-trading too?

If not, I question whether any of you have ever actually used a p2p program before. Most operate on the principle that users must enter with a considerable share of music before being able to download anything, thus closely mirroring tape trading in practice. However, there are still (correctable) problems with this: first, is more of a cultural problem. The scale and accessibility is of course much larger and coupled with the “new” ways and habits of actually listening to music “on the go,” potentially devalues a record’s significance. But stupid people will never know how to adapt to or properly utilize technology, much less treat art as more than a simple commodity and plaything.

The second and partially related issue: Users do not always share artwork and or liner notes. But again, this is not very different from dubbing tapes. And of course, it is possible to find many HQ scans of the interior and exterior as well as websites geared specifically for this purpose. Some people will use this to make their own bootleg copy of something, a tangible new toy to slide on the shelf, but others will use it to actually learn, help promote and discern the value of new and [older] music and as metal fans alwyas do, will continue buying CDs.

Given the quantity of absolute garbage – badly produced, performed, compiled and packaged – music there is out there today, I would still be worried more about shitty bands being promoted in the media in the first place rather than some kid loading up his hard drive with those same crap bands.

But there is also seldom an old and long forgotten act you can NOT find these days, and for a zine like LOTFP to shun what is potentially a virtual and vast library of information and history pertaining to the entire genre… just does not compute. And to do so in the name of passion?! That isn’t radical, Jim; it’s stubborn and unenlightened.

CDs are mass-product, not holy artifacts. There is no reason to be in such a moral quandary about downloading music considering what it costs to make a CD, what it’s sold for and what cut of that a band actually gets. The primary opponents of music downloading are large corporate labels who are as preposterous as to call for the removal of GUITAR TABLATURE. And it would be naïve to think of this as some kind of issue between musicians and non-musicians.

To the other drama queen: If there’s a band out there that’s taking the full $10 in for their CD, I guarantee you their music isn’t too easy to find and download on the internet.

 

[J.]

To the other drama queen: If there’s a band out there that’s taking the full $10 in for their CD, I guarantee you their music isn’t too easy to find and download on the internet.

I wouldn't know. I honestly do not know where to download music, nor am I interested. If there is an album I want, I scour the internet searching for it instead of jumping on some website, opening a folder and downloading. How empty that must feel.

As for the rest of your post, I can sum it up in a sentence: The technology is there and I'm going to use it, because I'm cheap and downloading is easy. Just more self-justifications. Good job, you're my hero.

And no, I've never used a p2p program and never tape traded. I don't cheat my passions.

 

[Fando]

I wouldn't know. I honestly do not know where to download music, nor am I interested. If there is an album I want, I scour the internet searching for it instead of jumping on some website, opening a folder and downloading. How empty that must feel.

Yes, surely I am deprived of the transcendental force that can only come wrapped inside a piece of plastic. You are kidding yourself, dude.

I will repeat myself again, since you didn't get it the first time: It is not a matter of just "wanting." There is difference between treating this as information (something that can just as well be learned from, studied and reapplied, that can be done justice by actually, you know, spending time listening to it.) and treating it as pure commodity, which is what you seemed so concerned with (having not a clue how much money I actually spend on music).

The very fact of ownership does not somehow validate your rank and honor.

Pure scenester bullshit.

 

[skeptik]

Could you please expand on that notion a bit?

I find it a bit saddening that you can only find joy in half a dozen releases per year, that's all. Surely even the most bitter and jaded of music aficionados can muster up an appreciation for a nice, two-digit number of releases per year. I don't know if you just don't look very hard or your tastes are incredibly narrow and defined or what, but I generally do not find much shortage of worthy material to own every year.

 

[J.]

Yes, surely I am deprived of the transcendental force that can only come wrapped inside a piece of plastic.

I guess when you don't get it, you don't get it. I'm not gonna try to convince you, since you do well convincing yourself of falsities and simplifications.

I will repeat myself again, since you didn't get it the first time: It is not a matter of just "wanting." There is difference between treating this as information (something that can just as well be learned from, studied and reapplied, that can be done justice by actually, you know, spending time listening to it.) and treating it as pure commodity, which is what you seemed so concerned with (having not a clue how much money I actually spend on music).

The very fact of ownership does not somehow validate your rank and honor.

Of course there is more than "wanting". But actually owning the physical media allows for lyrics, artwork, which is part of the full package the artist (you know, the one who wrote the music you download) wanting you to enjoy. I'm sure you've heard these reasons before.

I guess respect for the artist goes a long with me.

And I don't know how you assumed that I think I am somehow more honorable for owning a certain album than those without, but whatever.

Carry on with downloading though.

Pure poser bullshit.

 

[Fando]

But actually owning the physical media allows for lyrics, artwork, which is part of the full package the artist (you know, the one who wrote the music you download) wanting you to enjoy. I'm sure you've heard these reasons before.

And as stated, that media is not hard very hard to come by (and unless you're listening to black or death metal, most vocalists are easily understood by ear) and again, I do not and never did dismiss any of these, but you're not very good at reading the arguments against you.

You are essentially arguing that people are posers for hearing a copy of the same mass-manufactured item but not owning it. Rubbish.

I will reiterate my point: Music can be just as deeply felt and understood without actually owning a legit-store-bought copy of the goddamn CD.

So I'll keep downloading and I'll keep listening to the beat-up, worn out TDK tapes of Obituary and Slayer that I copied from my friends in 8th grade. And you can keep acting like you've actually proved something.

 

[J.]

You are essentially arguing that people are posers for hearing a copy of the same mass-manufactured item but not owning it.

Not "hearing". Never buying.

I will reiterate my point: Music can be just as deeply felt and understood without actually owning a legit-store-bought copy of the goddamn CD.

Perhaps. Fortunately I will never know. Again, respect goes a long way, for me at least.

So I'll keep downloading and I'll keep listening to the beat-up, worn out TDK tapes of Obituary and Slayer that I copied from my friends in 8th grade. And you can keep acting like you've actually proved something.

You do that. I'm sure those bands you claim to like appreciate it.

 

[Helm]

I find it a bit saddening that you can only find joy in half a dozen releases per year, that's all.

I am amazed that you do. I find entertainment in 100 releases a year, but I don't listen to Heavy Metal just for entertainment "these are killer riffs, dude". It has to have more enduring qualities that stand the test of time. When I was young and into power metal and paid money to buy say, Brainstorm's debut, I didn't really need Brainstorm's debut. It's an okay disk, a bit generic, can be listened to as background music. But I paid for it because I wanted more for the sake of variations of a theme, plus feeding this 'I must keep informed!' habit that metalheads had/have.

It should be telling to you, that from my actual cd collection I enmassed over said number of years before the internet, I listen to about 15% of it regularly. I didn't need to buy those cds. If I could have listened to them for a period of time before their entertainment value faded away, they would have never been in my collection. As a metalhead, I detest mediocrity in Heavy Metal. I am only interested in the exceptional stuff. My method of downloading lots, listening intenfully for a period of time and then making an informed decision on whether I should buy this cd or not saves me the dead-space of more Brainstorm cds. The internet is a great boon for the discerning listener because reading - often completely directed - reviews and saying 'gosh, that sounds like something I'd be interested in!' which was and for most non-internet people remains the main method of judging purchases is a very very flawed method that leads to having many Brainstorm cds in one's collection.

Even if you trust the reviewer, he is not yourself. Risking money for the tastes of a reviewer is not viable for me anymore. I cannot sell my soul to the devil so I can keep a cd-bying fixation going. I listen with my own ears, make my own judgements unrelated to hype, and if a record holds up, hey, it goes in a to-buy list.

And yes, releases that actually enhance my life, enrich me emotionally and intellectually are few and far between. I have difficult tastes exactly because Heavy Metal is so important to me. Be sad about someone else that doesn't appreciate their passions enough to be critical of them. Just another record by just another band doing something just barely decent doesn't get me all excited. Routinely buying Heavy Metal is not a way of life for me anymore. There's six records a year out there for me to track down, as there are six books out there for me, six graphic novels, six movies. These numbers I find are very reasonable.

Surely even the most bitter and jaded of music aficionados can muster up an appreciation for a nice, two-digit number of releases per year.

Haha is that 10-99? Giving it a pretty wide range there, aren't you? So I am sad because you pull an arbiterate number of releases, which if I had liked then I wouldn't be sad? Basically I am sad because I am not you, then? I can turn that right around and accuse you of having very easy-to-please tastes and then say how sad I feel for you, and that would just be insulting, right?

 

[Jim LotFP]

If not, I question whether any of you have ever actually used a p2p program before.

I have no interest in the concept, so I haven't bothered. I don't tape/CDr trade.

But there is also seldom an old and long forgotten act you can NOT find these days, and for a zine like LOTFP to shun what is potentially a virtual and vast library of information and history pertaining to the entire genre… just does not compute. And to do so in the name of passion?! That isn’t radical, Jim; it’s stubborn and unenlightened.

So be it.

There is no reason to be in such a moral quandary about downloading music considering what it costs to make a CD, what it’s sold for and what cut of that a band actually gets.

For what goes into the making of an album, a CD is very underpriced. That the physical artifact just costs a couple bucks to make is fairly irrelevant and is not the greatest expense involved in the process of making an album.

I will reiterate my point: Music can be just as deeply felt and understood without actually owning a legit-store-bought copy of the goddamn CD.

See, this is "does not compute" territory for me.

Assuming you're not talking about having actually bought the downloads somewhere, you're talking about deeply feeling a work of art but giving the finger to the people who made the damn thing.

And you know, I have stopped going to every other goddamn music message board on the net because this kind of discussion really wears me down. It has nothing to do with the quality of a piece of music, examining publicity and hype, general media silliness, industry issues ("how I find out about and listen to music" is not a discussion of industry issues) or anything else that I enjoy using the board for. Nobody's mind is ever changed, it just gets people angry with each other.

Everyone, repeat after me: "The way I do it is completely correct and everyone else's way is limited and unreasonable! You fuckers!"

Everyone's had their say now, can we drop it before I get tired of my own board?

 

[Helm]

You mean that you don't think internet digital (nonphysical) distribution isn't a potential benefit to the same types of bands LotFP has been presenting in a while? The underground, the unsigned and the not-trying-to-be-signed? This is relevant to the industry and it could potentially be to the service of many a great band that decides to take their art in their hands and not end up breaking up because of bullshit industry powerplays. This isn't just about some jerks justifying stealing art, and some other jerks taking the moral highground because they have a stronger financial situation.

I am not talking not paying people for their art as a rule. But in order to discuss internet distribution, you - and others - should stop putting your hands over your ears and shouting 'la la la la I am not listening!' whenever the term 'peer to peer' is uttered.

That isn’t radical, Jim; it’s stubborn and unenlightened.

I have to concur.