Censor: How Far is Too Far?

[Hell Mike]

Nazism is outlawed in Germany. A man was sentenced to jail because he had taught his dog to raise his right front paw when he (The elderly man) said "Do the Salute".

 

[Ayeka]

However, there are also left wing bands that are being censored in germany. I think the song "deutschland muss sterben" (germany must die) by the band "slime" is forbidden...

Interesting...that kinda makes things alright

I find this highlights quite well the way that Germany seems to have been made the scapegoat of all the evils of the world that might be associated with WWII...which, though understandable to an extent, is still quite pathetic imo. I just like to know there's a sense of balance being kept about things

 

[HarmonyDies....]

Nazism is outlawed in Germany. A man was sentenced to jail because he had taught his dog to raise his right front paw when he (The elderly man) said "Do the Salute".

Huh?
That's pretty stupid.


Canada deported someone for saying the "Holocaust never happened" or something along those lines, and of course everyone agreed with the decision. 'Course the man I think had some nazi beliefs and said this in front of a classroom, but that's still no excuse for deportation.

 

[J.]

I Nobody in Germany is forbidden to simply talk, write or dispute about that time, it's just that the expression of "beliefs" like "no jews were killed by the nazis" or "yes, the nazis killed a lot of jews and we're damn proud of that" is forbidden, and that's a good thing if you ask me.

No, that is awful. In fact, it's practically the German Gov't telling you what to believe and support. What happened to free choice in Germany?

That's like saying it's against the law in America to say "Hey, the South never had slaves" or "The KKK rules and I wish they'd hang every my pals from a tree". Of course I would never say those things, but I should definitely have the right to say it.

 

[Shakermaker]

First of all, National Socialism was quite an unique event in (recent) history and it was very well documented. You can't compare the views and aims of the radical neo-nazis in germany and the rest of the world to some redneck who just wants to hang a confederation flag over his bed. There are people in this world who are fighting for national socialism to become a valid political ideology again - those are the dangerous guys. And they are willing to take action. Only recently, the german police have discovered plans for a bombing of the holocaust monument in Berlin - obviously those people have been inspired by the islamic terrorism. And the REALLY dangerous nazis are the ones with suit, tie and an universitiy degree. Do you want total freedom for such people? They'd know how to use it.
Germany does not tell its people what to believe, as far as I have seen. There's always discussion about the third reich going on and afaik every german school talks about national socialism in history lessons for about a year. It is just forbidden to spread LIES about one of the most well-documented periods in human history. I'm a liberal person and i don't see anything wrong with that. I'd search out and translate the part in the constitution for you but I'm in quite a hurry now.
Interesting discussion, I'd like to delve deeper into it but my english isn't up to par... I'm going till fjälls now, SKIING. I'll be back in about a week, so bye for now

 

[NAD]

Have a safe trip.

I still maintain that beliefs should be able to be held, regardless of how revolting they may be. However I do understand the taboo that Nazism and the like have in Germany, since that is still in recent memory for many people, and some of those bands just seem to want to piss people off as opposed to discussing their point of view in an intelligent manner (particular effectiveness of either style is debatable I suppose). Even in the US it's nearly forbidden to speak of segregation, let alone slavery, and that ended quite some time ago.

 

[Hell Mike]

First of all, National Socialism was quite an unique event in (recent) history and it was very well documented. You can't compare the views and aims of the radical neo-nazis in germany and the rest of the world to some redneck who just wants to hang a confederation flag over his bed.

Most neo-nazis are just like that, no matter where they live.

There are people in this world who are fighting for national socialism to become a valid political ideology again - those are the dangerous guys.

Dangerous because of what? People like that are different from the majority?
There could be (and would have been if there hadn't been a war raging) a nazi party NOT wanting a holocaust. Saying that I'm wrong is like saying all christians support the crusades and the inquisition and would gladly do it again.

And the REALLY dangerous nazis are the ones with suit, tie and an universitiy degree. Do you want total freedom for such people? They'd know how to use it.

OH MY DEAREST GOD IN HEAVEN, JAHVE! People thinking unlike the masses? No freedom for them!

Germany does not tell its people what to believe, as far as I have seen.
It is just forbidden to spread LIES about one of the most well-documented periods in human history.

Germany tells its people what NOT to believe, and that's as bad if you ask me.


Personally I'd like it if I could decide what people could think and what they couldn't, but I can't, and I think freedom of speech is a nice enough solution. The problem is, such a thing does not exist.

 

[J.]

I would rather those neo-nazis spread their message of hate, ridiculous as it may be, than be arrested for holding and trying to spread such beliefs. Whether I agree with them or not is not the point. THe point is, they should have the right to say, believe, or spread any message they feel like.

How's the old cliche go? "I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

 

[Ayeka]

First of all, National Socialism was quite an unique event in (recent) history and it was very well documented. You can't compare the views and aims of the radical neo-nazis in germany and the rest of the world to some redneck who just wants to hang a confederation flag over his bed. There are people in this world who are fighting for national socialism to become a valid political ideology again - those are the dangerous guys. And they are willing to take action. Only recently, the german police have discovered plans for a bombing of the holocaust monument in Berlin - obviously those people have been inspired by the islamic terrorism. And the REALLY dangerous nazis are the ones with suit, tie and an universitiy degree. Do you want total freedom for such people? They'd know how to use it.
Germany does not tell its people what to believe, as far as I have seen. There's always discussion about the third reich going on and afaik every german school talks about national socialism in history lessons for about a year. It is just forbidden to spread LIES about one of the most well-documented periods in human history. I'm a liberal person and i don't see anything wrong with that. I'd search out and translate the part in the constitution for you but I'm in quite a hurry now.
Interesting discussion, I'd like to delve deeper into it but my english isn't up to par... I'm going till fjälls now, SKIING. I'll be back in about a week, so bye for now

We could turn this argument around and apply it to the Jews, funnily enough. The treatment of Palestinians in Israel is comparable to the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany...second rate jobs, homes, education, infrastructure, and then curfews, murders...I heard they even passed racial purity laws in Israel earlier this year - something along the lines of a Palestinian trying to marry into a Jewish family loses his citizenship.
Then, you can say that the people who enforce this are "willing to take action"...let's face it, who were the recent wars against Iraq and Afghanistan fought for? Is it a coincidence that it was the same people who effectively control American media, and thus were able to convince the American people (and thus, the world?) that these wars were really fought for "WMDs", "democracy" and other throwaway buzzwords? As far as I know, there is no oil in Afghanistan

So, you prefer freedom for the people who support this today, as opposed to those who support an ideology that was effectively crushed 58 years ago? I have to ask - why do you think the former are able to keep a stranglehold over the latter? We in England - I don't even need to go on to Germany - are taught that the Holocaust was the worst thing to happen to mankind since we ever crawled out the oceans. Sod the genocide of Native Americans. Sod the plan proposed by the English to exterminate the Aboriginees in Australia and repopulate it with entirely white folk. Sod Slobodan Milosovich and his ethnic cleansing of Muslims, a mere 10 years and less ago (coincidence that Muslims are the enemies of the Jews in the MIddle East? ). Sod the continious genocide that occurs over Africa. Sod other genocides I may have forgotten. It appears we are taught that Jewish lives are more relevant than those of the gentile - heh, even the Talmund says this.

As it happens, the Jews have a lot to gain from the Holocaust. They got a country out of it, and now they can use it to blackmail us gentiles wheneverthey feel like it. Anyone who felt an savage knee to the groin when they read the words National and Socialist in this thread will attest to that. This is why the Jews are practically immune to critiscism these days...I wish I'd collected newspaper clippings over the last four years to back this up but anyone who follows the news and denies this, I have to say, is a liar, pure and simple.
So, after all that, suddenly one can understand why the Jews might want to exagerrate the death toll of the Holocaust...and why people who think otherwise are consigned to prison cells...

While I'm at it, did I mention how it's funny how most of the time, the only people mentioned in the Holocaust are the Jews? Rarely the gypies/homosexuals/Slavs/mentally disabled...we had them mentioned last year in History (AS level), but only as a side note.
Really, it's not funny...it's kind of sick...

EDIT: I forgot to address, "Germany does not tell it's people what to believe"...how bullshit is this? If it didn't, then why the hell would he have this rabid, paranoid persecution of NS ideology that we see today? Did anyone catch the fuss in the news recently over a company that was supplying materials for another Holocaust memorial (yes, yet another, as if we hadn't got the point already ) - the same company had helped develop Zkylon B gas 60 years previously. I think that helps lay the point in, along with "forgive and forget applies to everyone except the Jews"

 

[Hell Mike]

Well, I don't see why the company that developed Zyklon B shouldn't be able to give money to whomever they want - since Zyklon B was originally an insect pesticide. Worked fine with them jews to, for some reason. hee hee hee. Fire up your flamers, gentlemen.

 

[JayKeeley]

There could be (and would have been if there hadn't been a war raging) a nazi party NOT wanting a holocaust.

Not to blow this up, but I'm not sure if I understand that comment. As far as I knew, the German Nazi Party had plans to exterminate the Jews (and gypsies etc) way before invading Poland and so forth. Wasn't that what the "Master Plan" was all about?

 

[Hell Mike]

They wanted to get the jews out from what they felt was theirs, but they didn't decide to industrially wipe 'em out until the war had begun. That was a quick decision made because they didn't have the time, will or money to deport them all.

Remember that the Nazi party, as most political parties, wanted the best for their people, and not necessarily a genocide. The 'Master Plan', if I'm thinking of the same thing as you are, was the plans to occupy Poland and Russia to the Ural Mountains (or wtf they are called) as well as parts of western Europe to get Lebensraum (Living space) for the Übermensch.

The goal for the Nazi party was never merely killing of the people they didn't like.
Do you really think the people would follow a man who said "VOTE FOR ME AND I'LL KILL ALL TEH JEWS AND GAYS!!!!!11"?

Hitler turned the German depression where people starved and unemplyment was near enough total to a thriving country where 95-100% of the people (The ones he considered 'the people') was employed and well, built roads all over Germany etc. Losig the war (and killing the jews, but this would have been overlooked if he had won) was his only real mistake.

 

[Erik]

95-100% of the people (The ones he considered 'the people') was employed

Yes, even if some of the jobs consisted of digging holes and filling them up again, or equivalent.

 

[Hell Mike]

That kind of tihn was more common in soviet, more jobs eere build roads and waepon

 

[Shakermaker]

Most neo-nazis are just like that, no matter where they live.


Dangerous because of what? People like that are different from the majority?
There could be (and would have been if there hadn't been a war raging) a nazi party NOT wanting a holocaust. Saying that I'm wrong is like saying all christians support the crusades and the inquisition and would gladly do it again.

OH MY DEAREST GOD IN HEAVEN, JAHVE! People thinking unlike the masses? No freedom for them!

Germany tells its people what NOT to believe, and that's as bad if you ask me.


Personally I'd like it if I could decide what people could think and what they couldn't, but I can't, and I think freedom of speech is a nice enough solution. The problem is, such a thing does not exist.

Anti-Semitism in its destructive form is an integral part of the ideology of national socialism. Of course, one has to differentiate between a mere right-wing way of thinking and the ideology that is national socialism.

 

[Ayeka]

Well, I don't see why the company that developed Zyklon B shouldn't be able to give money to whomever they want - since Zyklon B was originally an insect pesticide. Worked fine with them jews to, for some reason. hee hee hee. Fire up your flamers, gentlemen.

Well, like you say, it was a pesticide sorry, couldn't resist...