I was perusing the Dungeon board and found a link someone had posted to a diary being kept by a recording engineer while working with a band making their first cd. It's a classic example of how screwed up things in the industry are. The band is being ripped off and screwed royaly. Click here for the Diary
Check this out!
- Thread starter Mr. Hyde
- Start date
rabies
Proud IMG Guitarist!
The link is screwed up.
Go here:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/week1/mm.php
I started reading it. It is very long. I am in week 3 I think. Its actually rather cool reading..getting an insight on how the pros work...and its amusing to boot. Thanks Hyde.
One thing..why did they hire an 'editor'...the guy he calls fast fingers. I am not sure what the editor is doing while the engineer and producer continue to record tracks/etc.
Is he splicing tracks to get the drums in time again?
Go here:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/week1/mm.php
I started reading it. It is very long. I am in week 3 I think. Its actually rather cool reading..getting an insight on how the pros work...and its amusing to boot. Thanks Hyde.
One thing..why did they hire an 'editor'...the guy he calls fast fingers. I am not sure what the editor is doing while the engineer and producer continue to record tracks/etc.
Is he splicing tracks to get the drums in time again?
rabies
Proud IMG Guitarist!
I can't believe Mixerman was forced to do that on analog 2"!
That is insane! 188 edits? :faint:
I'd love to see how that works though....how do you compare to the click track on an analog system?
That is insane! 188 edits? :faint:
I'd love to see how that works though....how do you compare to the click track on an analog system?
IMO a lot of what these guys, Mixerman and Willie Show, are doing is a waste of time and the band's money. They should have recorded the band live playing each song before they ever went into the studio to make the cd. Then they could have went through each track individually and solved most of these problems before renting the studio, extra gear, etc...and wasting so much money.
I've heard some bad drummers in my time, really bad, but 188 edits? To get one good take?
The tapes are striped with time code and the computer program they use should have the same time code as a reference so that everything can link up once it's edited. The original analog master tapes aren't being cut, they make a seperate copy for editing so that they still have the original click track and time code in tact. (At least that's how I believe they are going about it)
What get's me is when Willie removes the sound barriers and moves everyone close together. With a band that can't play well together it makes editing nearly impossible because of the bleed over. It seems like an obvious waste of time.
Another thing that get's me is how the band seems oblivious to the fact that it's their money that's being wasted.
I think this is a definite must read, for musicians, and for people who don't understand why a band who sells millions of records cannot make any money and actually ends up in debt. The way I read this story, the band is already over 2 million in the hole due to their advances and studio expenses and they haven't even made their first cd.
I've heard some bad drummers in my time, really bad, but 188 edits? To get one good take?
The tapes are striped with time code and the computer program they use should have the same time code as a reference so that everything can link up once it's edited. The original analog master tapes aren't being cut, they make a seperate copy for editing so that they still have the original click track and time code in tact. (At least that's how I believe they are going about it)
What get's me is when Willie removes the sound barriers and moves everyone close together. With a band that can't play well together it makes editing nearly impossible because of the bleed over. It seems like an obvious waste of time.
Another thing that get's me is how the band seems oblivious to the fact that it's their money that's being wasted.
I think this is a definite must read, for musicians, and for people who don't understand why a band who sells millions of records cannot make any money and actually ends up in debt. The way I read this story, the band is already over 2 million in the hole due to their advances and studio expenses and they haven't even made their first cd.
rabies
Proud IMG Guitarist!
This snippet blew me away:
"We went through our usual process of trying to find a guitar sound that best fit the song and the sound of the drums. Sometimes this can be like putting together a puzzle. Every instrument had to sound like it belonged with the others. Everything started with the drums. If the drums were more stylized, so too did the bass and guitar need be. Not only is style considered, but the frequency range that the instruments occupy is considered as well. In this case the kik drum was very round and took up a lot of low end space, so the bass had to have some mid range attack to it in order to cut through. Half the battle is finding the instrument that works best for the application. In this case we wanted a bass that had a very pronounced mid range, so we tried a Hoffner bass. This particular bass was over 30 years old, and could have easily been used by Paul McCartney, although we have no documentation of such events. "
wow..I wish we had the luxury to do that!
Thanks for the points Hyde. I did not realize that the bands money was being wasted. I assumed that the studio was paying for all the extravagance. I've never recorded (outside of our little project) so this is all new to me. I have no idea how it all works in a real studio. Makes me wonder how bad I would be in a real studio (like..would my tracks require 188 edits...)
"We went through our usual process of trying to find a guitar sound that best fit the song and the sound of the drums. Sometimes this can be like putting together a puzzle. Every instrument had to sound like it belonged with the others. Everything started with the drums. If the drums were more stylized, so too did the bass and guitar need be. Not only is style considered, but the frequency range that the instruments occupy is considered as well. In this case the kik drum was very round and took up a lot of low end space, so the bass had to have some mid range attack to it in order to cut through. Half the battle is finding the instrument that works best for the application. In this case we wanted a bass that had a very pronounced mid range, so we tried a Hoffner bass. This particular bass was over 30 years old, and could have easily been used by Paul McCartney, although we have no documentation of such events. "
wow..I wish we had the luxury to do that!
Thanks for the points Hyde. I did not realize that the bands money was being wasted. I assumed that the studio was paying for all the extravagance. I've never recorded (outside of our little project) so this is all new to me. I have no idea how it all works in a real studio. Makes me wonder how bad I would be in a real studio (like..would my tracks require 188 edits...)
Eventually, every dime spent will end up being paid back by the band in one way or another. The record company is only putting the money out up front. The band will have to pay it all back with their share of the royalties which will probably only amount to 1/10 or less of what the record company will make off of their sales. That's how the record company can force the band to do it's bidding. It is a nasty business for sure.
It would be nice to have any instrument at your disposal to get a particular sound.
The thing is that most of that kind of luxury won't be audible in the final product anyhow. You can tell when you are using different this and that very easily with the high resolution of 2'' tape recording at 30 inches per second but when you mix it down and add effects etc...most of that special tone will be lost. Another waste of time and money? I'm not sure, but I think you really have to keep the end product in mind. Of course you want to capture the best possible sound on tape or on to hard disk but I think you need to draw a line at what is good enough for the project at hand. Just because you can have any sound, does that mean you should?
Rabies, your tracks would not require 188 edits. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't let these things go on in your recording session without some serious questioning of those involved.
It brings up another question in my mind about the band...why haven't they spoken up about what they think is acceptable? Isn't it their music and their vision that should be captured in
the final product? If they are happy with their performance, what gives? It sounds like they signed away all of their creative rights to the record company...what a nightmare.
It would be nice to have any instrument at your disposal to get a particular sound.
The thing is that most of that kind of luxury won't be audible in the final product anyhow. You can tell when you are using different this and that very easily with the high resolution of 2'' tape recording at 30 inches per second but when you mix it down and add effects etc...most of that special tone will be lost. Another waste of time and money? I'm not sure, but I think you really have to keep the end product in mind. Of course you want to capture the best possible sound on tape or on to hard disk but I think you need to draw a line at what is good enough for the project at hand. Just because you can have any sound, does that mean you should?
Rabies, your tracks would not require 188 edits. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't let these things go on in your recording session without some serious questioning of those involved.
It brings up another question in my mind about the band...why haven't they spoken up about what they think is acceptable? Isn't it their music and their vision that should be captured in
the final product? If they are happy with their performance, what gives? It sounds like they signed away all of their creative rights to the record company...what a nightmare.
rabies
Proud IMG Guitarist!
First, let me just say I finished reading all of it. It took me two days...including Lances renegade articles on the drummer auditions.
After having read the whole thing, i can't help but feel its not 100% real....
Clearly mixerman is a real recording pro...i looked at the compressor unit he mentioned in his article...OMG..what a piece of equipment!.....but it seems too much like a spinal tap movie or something to be real. I mean...the whole deal with the drummer going through the glass just days before the secret session drummer was to arrive (sorry for spoiling parts for anybody reading). The girlfriend showing up on the perfect day and being a killer percussionist? Too many coincidences to be real life I think. I think maybe he is drawing from many experiences and culminating it into one intriguing tale. I dunno.
I don't know what I enjoy more..the soap opera part, or the tidbits of info on how it works in the major leagues...and why do they keep calling ProTools Alhihab..or whatever? He also lost me on some technical talk about the stereo bus..or something.
...and about the artists signing away their creative rights..well...the drummer is doing his best to make sure a drummer is picked that plays as awful as him...the guitar player just doesn't seem to care...and the singer only seems to be interested in getting famous....the one person who did care split!
Regardless..thanks for sharing the link. I will be keeping up with it to see what transpires.
After having read the whole thing, i can't help but feel its not 100% real....
Clearly mixerman is a real recording pro...i looked at the compressor unit he mentioned in his article...OMG..what a piece of equipment!.....but it seems too much like a spinal tap movie or something to be real. I mean...the whole deal with the drummer going through the glass just days before the secret session drummer was to arrive (sorry for spoiling parts for anybody reading). The girlfriend showing up on the perfect day and being a killer percussionist? Too many coincidences to be real life I think. I think maybe he is drawing from many experiences and culminating it into one intriguing tale. I dunno.
I don't know what I enjoy more..the soap opera part, or the tidbits of info on how it works in the major leagues...and why do they keep calling ProTools Alhihab..or whatever? He also lost me on some technical talk about the stereo bus..or something.
...and about the artists signing away their creative rights..well...the drummer is doing his best to make sure a drummer is picked that plays as awful as him...the guitar player just doesn't seem to care...and the singer only seems to be interested in getting famous....the one person who did care split!
Regardless..thanks for sharing the link. I will be keeping up with it to see what transpires.
I felt that the parts written by Mixerman could possibly be real with some added b.s. thrown in to make it more interesting. The parts on the message board that were written by Lance didn't seem to be authentic to me.
I felt the same way as you when I finished it rabies. Probably not 100% real. Unfortunately I have to admit that as silly as some of that stuff sounds, I don't really doubt that it can happen. How would you react if I told that we once had a drummer who claimed to have had a heart attack on the way to band practice? Unbelievable? It really happened. The dude then proceeded to make it through practice...and we didn't even have to get out the old defibrulator.
...'
'
I've personally ran into some real characters much like the one's mentioned in the story. The guy might be compiling many characters he's met over the years and putting them into this story.
Was he referring to ProTools when he spoke of Als I had? I thought early in the article he mentioned that some people still didn't want to go with the Mac's and so he only had Als I had to work with...Maybe I misunderstood that part...I don't understand why he would slag ProTools. I've never worked with it but I've only heard good things about it.
I guess RADAR is Cakewalk's Sonar? I didn't check if there is an actual RADAR product out there.
Some of that technical stuff he was telling to the a-n-r guy was totall b.s. made up to confuse him into stop asking questions.
The drummer wanting someone who plays as poorly as him is classic...but man I have to say...I've met drummers who played off time and claimed that they were doing it on purpose for feel. Good point about the drummer getting to have his say. There are definitely some contradictions in there, like you pointed out...maybe they smoked one too many "fatties".
I hope this guy Mixerman continues his writing because I'm hooked.
I felt the same way as you when I finished it rabies. Probably not 100% real. Unfortunately I have to admit that as silly as some of that stuff sounds, I don't really doubt that it can happen. How would you react if I told that we once had a drummer who claimed to have had a heart attack on the way to band practice? Unbelievable? It really happened. The dude then proceeded to make it through practice...and we didn't even have to get out the old defibrulator.
...''I've personally ran into some real characters much like the one's mentioned in the story. The guy might be compiling many characters he's met over the years and putting them into this story.
Was he referring to ProTools when he spoke of Als I had? I thought early in the article he mentioned that some people still didn't want to go with the Mac's and so he only had Als I had to work with...Maybe I misunderstood that part...I don't understand why he would slag ProTools. I've never worked with it but I've only heard good things about it.
I guess RADAR is Cakewalk's Sonar? I didn't check if there is an actual RADAR product out there.
Some of that technical stuff he was telling to the a-n-r guy was totall b.s. made up to confuse him into stop asking questions.
The drummer wanting someone who plays as poorly as him is classic...but man I have to say...I've met drummers who played off time and claimed that they were doing it on purpose for feel. Good point about the drummer getting to have his say. There are definitely some contradictions in there, like you pointed out...maybe they smoked one too many "fatties".
I hope this guy Mixerman continues his writing because I'm hooked.
rabies
Proud IMG Guitarist!
Radar is an actual product. I checked it out...he had a link to their site in the story:
http://www.recordingtheworld.com/
I thought maybe Alsihad was a real product too....upon doing a google search for that word, i immediately got scores of hits from music related sites/faq and such. But it basically boils down to the fact that MM coined that phrase for pro-tools. He seemed very against the thought of putting tracks down in a digital format at all...only RADAR 24 was good enough..and that seemed like a program that worked in conjunction with tape. A friend of mine at work uses Pro-Tools exclusively...and loves it. I guess MM is just big on the sound analog brings to a mix.
I knew the stuff for the AR guy was a crack...even i could tell he was completely making that crap up..flux capacitor indeed. But there were a couple of other tech talks in the later weeks that confused me....I can't seem to find it anymore..but it was something about not screwing around with the stereo bus or something.
..and most important..i can't believe i am doing the job of at least 6 people in the pro world for our own little thing. I am:
1. The recording artist (eyore)
2. The Sound Engineer/Tracker (Mixermans job)
3. The producer (willy)
4. The mixer (tbd..though MM has the first shot)
5. The Editor (Fingaz)
6. The mastering Engineer. (tbd)
http://www.recordingtheworld.com/
I thought maybe Alsihad was a real product too....upon doing a google search for that word, i immediately got scores of hits from music related sites/faq and such. But it basically boils down to the fact that MM coined that phrase for pro-tools. He seemed very against the thought of putting tracks down in a digital format at all...only RADAR 24 was good enough..and that seemed like a program that worked in conjunction with tape. A friend of mine at work uses Pro-Tools exclusively...and loves it. I guess MM is just big on the sound analog brings to a mix.
I knew the stuff for the AR guy was a crack...even i could tell he was completely making that crap up..flux capacitor indeed. But there were a couple of other tech talks in the later weeks that confused me....I can't seem to find it anymore..but it was something about not screwing around with the stereo bus or something.
..and most important..i can't believe i am doing the job of at least 6 people in the pro world for our own little thing. I am:
1. The recording artist (eyore)
2. The Sound Engineer/Tracker (Mixermans job)
3. The producer (willy)
4. The mixer (tbd..though MM has the first shot)
5. The Editor (Fingaz)
6. The mastering Engineer. (tbd)
Cool, thanks for the info rabies. I'll have to check out the info about RADAR. I thought that Alsihad might be real too, but then I started reading it as "All's I had".
I think I'll go back and re-read some of that because I rushed through it the first time and missed some stuff.
I do remember him saying something about the stereo bus but I thought it was when he was trying to confuse the a-n-r guy. I'll see if I can find the section and if I know what he's talking about I'll post here about it.
I think I'll go back and re-read some of that because I rushed through it the first time and missed some stuff.
I do remember him saying something about the stereo bus but I thought it was when he was trying to confuse the a-n-r guy. I'll see if I can find the section and if I know what he's talking about I'll post here about it.
I searched through the article and came up with a couple of hits on stereo where he talked about using compression on the stereo buss. I don't think those parts were what you are referring to though.
I re-read the part about the computers and Alsihad...You are right, he says (I'm paraphrasing) that people seem content to use obsolete and inferior products just because they have a greater market share...then he goes on to mention Mac's and Beta! I have never been made aware that Beta was inferior to VHS and that Mac's were inferior to pc's if that's what he means.
I've always heard the opposite. Maybe I'm as dumb as "Cotton" and don't get it?
When I first read that section, I thought he was saying that Beta and Mac's were better and hadn't risen to the top, now I see how it could be read the opposite way like he's implying that Mac's and Beta's are used more but are inferior products.
Here are his words:
"Alsihad is, without question, the most purchased and used Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) in the recording business. There are other manufacturers of DAWs, but none have anywhere close to the market share of Alsihad. As is typically the case with planned obsolescence style electronic equipment, computers, etc., the best product rarely rises to the top. Beta players and Macintosh computers are prime examples of that phenomenon. "
I re-read the part about the computers and Alsihad...You are right, he says (I'm paraphrasing) that people seem content to use obsolete and inferior products just because they have a greater market share...then he goes on to mention Mac's and Beta! I have never been made aware that Beta was inferior to VHS and that Mac's were inferior to pc's if that's what he means.
I've always heard the opposite. Maybe I'm as dumb as "Cotton" and don't get it?
When I first read that section, I thought he was saying that Beta and Mac's were better and hadn't risen to the top, now I see how it could be read the opposite way like he's implying that Mac's and Beta's are used more but are inferior products.
Here are his words:
"Alsihad is, without question, the most purchased and used Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) in the recording business. There are other manufacturers of DAWs, but none have anywhere close to the market share of Alsihad. As is typically the case with planned obsolescence style electronic equipment, computers, etc., the best product rarely rises to the top. Beta players and Macintosh computers are prime examples of that phenomenon. "
rabies
Proud IMG Guitarist!
Yea! That is what I am talking about! What the hell is he talking about? ..and where did you find it?
Macs being inferior to PCs is subjective. However, Beta was superior to VHS. Smaller form factor, higher quality...its a shame that was not the predominant format. VHS won simply because of market share.
I think what he is saying is beta and macs are better....saying betas were used more simply does not make sense. I think he is putting pro-tools down...and saying there are much better products available, but Pro-Tools is the 'standard' because of its popularity and market share.
If he is NOT saying that, I lose a lot of respect for him. I hear pro-tools is cool too..but I would not doubt that there is better out there. I'll dismiss his 'mac' is superior comment as him just being another 'Mac' guy. I've had 1 too many arguments against these types..so I know how they think. They have some valid points.
Macs being inferior to PCs is subjective. However, Beta was superior to VHS. Smaller form factor, higher quality...its a shame that was not the predominant format. VHS won simply because of market share.
I think what he is saying is beta and macs are better....saying betas were used more simply does not make sense. I think he is putting pro-tools down...and saying there are much better products available, but Pro-Tools is the 'standard' because of its popularity and market share.
If he is NOT saying that, I lose a lot of respect for him. I hear pro-tools is cool too..but I would not doubt that there is better out there. I'll dismiss his 'mac' is superior comment as him just being another 'Mac' guy. I've had 1 too many arguments against these types..so I know how they think. They have some valid points.
This is one of the excerpts I found about the compression on the stereo buss...this one is b.s. to confuse the bass player...I seem to remember something in there about compression that wasn't b.s. though and I can't find that one.
"I fed him a bunch of bullshit about compression and gave him made-up philosophies on the benefits of recording bass without compression and then adding it later. I further confused the issue by telling him that I was now putting a compressor on the stereo buss, and that this was making the 3rd harmonic distort slightly on the bass, allowing for the 1st harmonic to react with the odd-even harmonic contingency. He listened very intently as I pontificated."
I know that Mac's with ProTools are used a lot in the audio industry and Mac's are also used a lot in film. Maybe you're right, he's saying that Beta's and Mac's are better, as long as he isn't forced to use ProTools on a Mac.
If Only I had the opportunity to use a Protools system and RADAR and everything else he gets to use!
"I fed him a bunch of bullshit about compression and gave him made-up philosophies on the benefits of recording bass without compression and then adding it later. I further confused the issue by telling him that I was now putting a compressor on the stereo buss, and that this was making the 3rd harmonic distort slightly on the bass, allowing for the 1st harmonic to react with the odd-even harmonic contingency. He listened very intently as I pontificated."
I know that Mac's with ProTools are used a lot in the audio industry and Mac's are also used a lot in film. Maybe you're right, he's saying that Beta's and Mac's are better, as long as he isn't forced to use ProTools on a Mac.
If Only I had the opportunity to use a Protools system and RADAR and everything else he gets to use!
Eddies cellmate
Member
Man, I'm away from the cpu for a few days, and I missed this whole thing! 
Sounds interesting, if I get the time, I'll read that Mr.Hyde, thanks!
Sounds interesting, if I get the time, I'll read that Mr.Hyde, thanks!
rabies
Proud IMG Guitarist!
I believe you can download the pro-tools software from their site....the guy at work keeps getting me to try..but I am so ingrained with N-Track now...
EC. You should read it...but I warn you now that it is a loooong read. Took me 3 days (spare time).
Eddies cellmate
Member
ProTools' real strength is when it's used with it's associated hardware. I checked out the free version briefly and didn't really see that it was much better than any other software-only program. Really, it seemed a bit over-complicated to me.
But then, I really didn't check it out too thoroughly, maybe there were things I overlooked.
But then, I really didn't check it out too thoroughly, maybe there were things I overlooked.
I haven't downloaded Protools before but I might now that I just upgraded my ram.
I'm still waiting for Mixerman to start his updates again. It's like a soap opera for musicians.
I'm still waiting for Mixerman to start his updates again. It's like a soap opera for musicians.
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