Derivation

[OPETH_DT]

What inspired the guys to take the last part of "Through Smudged Lenses" and create "Derivation" with it for the single?

 

[Pauly's metalheads]

What inspired the guys to take the last part of "Through Smudged Lenses" and create "Derivation" with it for the single?

I found this interview from 2005 with Niklas

http://www.getreadytorock.com/pure_metal/dark_tranquility_interview.htm

"I really like the way both 'Derivation TNB' and the 'Endless Feed' sound in the EP, but I wouldn’t have wanted them on the real album. On a full length album you need to follow the red line, you need to have a certain directive.

The thought behind 'Derivation TNB' was to take some riffs and melodies that already existed on the new album, and mix them all together. It’s more a case of introducing some of the melodies and the themes that people will hear in a totally different version when they’ll buy our new album."

 

[Magrathean]

Sellout?

 

[marduk1507]

Most likely.

 

[Siren]

Sellout?

err?

 

[marduk1507]

to take some riffs and melodies that already existed on the new album, and mix them all together. It’s more a case of introducing some of the melodies and the themes that people will hear in a totally different version when they’ll buy our new album.

The definition of selling out to me. They should focus more on not making another album sounding like DD. When Dimmu Borgir or COF do it, to heaven with them. But DT?

 

[Siren]

a) you should read the whole interview.
b) character doesn't sound like DD.
c) if you want a whole new different sound, maybe you should listen to some other band or genre. there's only so many variations and DT will always sound like DT.
d) here's some more quotes from the interview for you to read:

"Yes, I guess so - the main reason for this release is quite simple. The recordings of 'Character' were finished back in February 2004, but the release was delayed due to this negotiation thing with our record label, and that meant that we had to wait for eleven whole months before its release."

"When you record new stuff, you are always eager to have people listen to your work and evaluate it."

"We also believe that EPs in general are a good way of experimenting, trying things out that would have not really fitted in any of our studio albums."

"The thought that we could do anything that we wanted and go wild on that version is something that we like and that makes us really happy. It also helps people discover all the different aspects in the music of Dark Tranquillity I suppose. 'Character' is a very intense album all the way through, and we didn’t have any room for melodic, clean sound."

e) what is selling out to you? focusing on making the next album different or in any specific way you would like it, or focusing on making it the way they like?

 

[marduk1507]

Chill, darling. Selling out to me means releasing more stuff than "necessary", they couldve go wild on Character, for that matter and do a whole lotta more experimenting than they actually did. Why do it on an ep, for gods sake? I dont want a new DT, Ive been listening to them way too long to say something like that. DT, like Opeth, have been under appreciated for a very long time. They had to release 5 albums to get the credit they deserved long ago. Imo they got it no sooner than with DD. I think Character is an album comprising everything they have released so far and it builds on the success of DD (the reactions of the newbies coming to this forum only prove it - for most of them, Character embodies the doors to DT, not Skydancer or The Gallery). I simply dont like these "introductory" albums for the new fans a band gets, because I know every note and riff from the previous albums and when I hear them on the new one, its a disappointment for me. And its not only DT, CoF have done the same with Nymphetamine, Opeth with GR, Helloween with Keeper III etc. Metal is "back with a vengeance" after the nu metal craze and metal bands which were sort of atop of the underground suddenly get wider audience than ever before. Its like a huge retro wave with all the reunions and shit - metal is back! I am just an old school fart of a fan who goes meh about his favourite band. I like them, therefore I bother, otherwise... ah, just dont listen to me, I could go on and on, blah blah blah...

And btw. - screw the red line!

 

[Siren]

Maybe they didn't do it on Character and they did it on the ep, because it's 6 of them and they all have to agree on the direction an album goes.
I'm just tired of listening to 'how much Character sucks', when imo it's a really good technical and complex album. Every time i listen to it i discover new things.
I don't think they did it as an "introductory" album of sorts, even if it turned out to be a pretty good one at that.

I don't know about screwing the red line, i rather enjoyed and appreciated the coherence DD had, so i understand when a band thinks an album is a whole rather than 12-13 different tracks and thus should keep a certain direction.

That said, there's nothing i'd like more than to see DT experiment more and take their music to the limits, but i respect what they decide to do with each album.

 

[Oriion]

Selling out to me means releasing more stuff than "necessary"

i think one shouldn't forget that music is an industry , and, whether we like it or not, a company is unlikely to overlook that.
major bands have been accused of selling out. not just in metal, not just in our days. therefore, i think it's time we got over this and cared more about the musical outcome.

 

[Magrathean]

Siren:

I will not write a whole essay explaining why i think C sounds like DD, because i did that already on some other thread. Moreover, i believe that you will never convince me that C doesn't sound like DD and i will never convince you that it does.

However, i will state that i believe C was released "as a sequel to DD" in the sense that, since DD and the dvd sold so much and DT became so famous, they figured they'd rather please their fans than release something new, something really DT-like, something as brilliant as all their past records. I might add that that's what sellout means, at least to me.

Yes, I guess so - the main reason for this release is quite simple. The recordings of 'Character' were finished back in February 2004, but the release was delayed due to this negotiation thing with our record label, and that meant that we had to wait for eleven whole months before its release.

Just as i can't find a single reason why C stands out from DD or the rest of DT's material, i can't find a single reason why this particular quote is of any importance.

When you record new stuff, you are always eager to have people listen to your work and evaluate it.

Said by a DT member? Might i point out that before C DT's philosophy was to make music for themselves to feel good with it and not for someone (i.e. fans) to listen to it an evaluate it?

The thought that we could do anything that we wanted and go wild on that version is something that we like and that makes us really happy. It also helps people discover all the different aspects in the music of Dark Tranquillity I suppose. 'Character' is a very intense album all the way through, and we didn’t have any room for melodic, clean sound.

This is a tricky one. Maybe they did want to make something like C, but why? My guess is to please fans rather than to please themselves. They've even toured more after C than after every other album they've released, if i'm not mistaken, and they haven't even finished touring. Also, i don't think C helps people discover all aspects of DT's sound. It just helps people see that a few more electronics than the ones on H and a bit more aggressiveness than the one on DD are possible, that a band like DT can release sequels instead of something different each time.

Siren, you don't have to listen to "how much C sucks" because it doesn't suck. It's a rather good album, and if i hadn't known DT before i'd be all over this album. But, as i've said before and as Marduk has more or less implied, it just doesn't live up to the other DT albums. It's not something new and spectacular that will take fans at least a year to learn and discover and understand. It's just an album that's very good by itself but becomes a disappointment in the light of what they made in the first 13 years of their career.

I like the "red line", if indeed it's what i understand it is from this series of posts. I also believe an album should be treated as a whole and have coherence. But that is why i don't see C as ten brilliant songs and a moderately good song (TNB), but rather as a wall of sound that's closer to DD than it should be and that's not really that brilliant as an album.

 

[Siren]

@undo: you did write an essay after all. however, i won't. how could i, since i don't seem to read their minds like you do.

no matter what i say i know i won't convince you, so i won't even try. but i do feel the need to point out a few things:
-that last quote you did was referring to the ep, not Character. so the ep helps people discover all sides of dt, not Character. again, my suggestion is to go read the whole interview, so at least you'll know what we're talking about.

-so, making the music you like and feeling good about your music is incompatible with being curious about what people will think about it, in your universe? if they were selllouts they'd already know beforehand that people would l0v3 their music, duh.

-apparently, from your reaction, Character is something (new and spectacular) that will take fans at least a year to learn and discover and understand.

-i cannot point out enough how i despise this tendency to label as sellouts every band when they do something we don't like. had they gone nu-metal, they'd be sellouts, did they go heavier, they're sellouts. doing something that makes them sell more doesn't equal being a sellout. doing something for the purpose to sell more equals being a sellout, but you're not in their minds to know if that's indeed the reason they made Character or not. and with this, i did end up writing an essay too.

 

[marduk1507]

Yeah, sellout is probably a too strong expression. Siren, dont get me wrong, I love DT and thats why Im trying to express my feelings and thoughts (positive as well as negative) about the band the best way I can. I plan to make a new thread about this and be more precise there, because I guess I need and have to. But for now, let me just put it this way. Helloween, and basically all speed/power metal bands are slaves of their fans and music industry. Their fans belong to the most orthodox fans in the metal scene, i.e. they want, say, Helloween, to always sound more or less the same (meaning as on Keeper I and II). If the band releases something like Pink Bubbles... or Chameleon (albums trying to explore new areas of expression within the given genre), it goes bankrupt, cause noone buys it and they get a load of shit from their fans. OK, the band quickly throws out the drummer (who then commits suicide), the singer (who hasnt released anything worth listening since, maybe except Instant Clarity) and start anew with a typical Helloween album. But then the situation comes again - with The Dark Ride (a good power metal, a lot darker than typical H stuff) - and the fans go crazy again. So, Grapow and Kusch have to go (who then form Masterplan with Lande and release an album selling more than Helloween - the irony!). And then the band goes down the drain - all the way to Keeper III (what else?).

Whats the point of all this? Well, Im an opposite of such a fan. Not an extreme opposite, because that wouldnt make any difference, but my attitude is to express my opinion when I think the band is trying to please me (it may sound as a paradox, but it isnt), when they make it easier for themselves. They are not sellouts, thats for sure, but I simply cannot believe them on the last 2 records. My friends say that they like it, cause its typical DT - well, thats exactly what makes me angry.

Everyone is free to express his/her opinion, just dont be mad at me, when you dont agree with me. You think Character is cool and thats perfectly ok. I just dont agree with you.

 

[rahvin]

However, i will state that i believe C was released "as a sequel to DD" in the sense that, since DD and the dvd sold so much and DT became so famous

this premise is wrong. the gallery remains the best-selling dt record ever, and as far as i know the dd era is not the peak of dt's popularity, at least in europe. it is true that the american market - especially in terms of venues - has opened up a lot for the band in recent years, but this is due to better promotion and touring with bands that are (or were) more popular than dt in the states.

you could say that dd was received better than haven, but you could also say that the whole metal scene was undergoing a little uncertainty around that time (circa 2000, i mean), and records that explored a middle ground between relentless brutality and poppy power ballads were confusing a part of the audience.

all things considered, there was no specific commercial reason to rehash dd.

they figured they'd rather please their fans than release something new, something really DT-like, something as brilliant as all their past records.

i concur with siren that your mind-reading abilities far surpass ours. from what i was told at the time, dt were much more satisfied with character than they've ever been with dd. i'm unaware of any fan-pleasing strategy going on behind the scenes.

Said by a DT member? Might i point out that before C DT's philosophy was to make music for themselves to feel good with it and not for someone (i.e. fans) to listen to it an evaluate it?

that didn't necessarily refer to the fans, you know.


i'm not an overexcited fan of character. it doesn't rank in my top three best dt records of all time. but your analysis is misinformed to say the least. you buy into all of the most obvious conspiracy theories that apply to big names like metallica or iron maiden. it should be known that, at the level of popularity achieved by the likes of dark tranquillity, there is no such thing as pressure on the part of the label or conspicuous marketing strategy to make the records seem more appealing and tailor-made to excite a certain target. it just doesn't make enough of a difference. if you find that dt's work has become stale and repetitive, it's much more likely that they're running out of ideas than they're somehow stifling their creative vein for the purpose of still not earning enough to quit their regular jobs.

 

[Siren]

Everyone is free to express his/her opinion, just dont be mad at me, when you dont agree with me. You think Character is cool and thats perfectly ok. I just dont agree with you.

How could i ever be mad at you..?
We don't agree, and that's perfectly ok. I just thought it was getting too one-sided and felt the need to express my opinion on the subject.
And for the record, i don't think Character enters my top 3 dt albums list either.