Does anyone track a full band at once?

[ElektricEyez]

Typically I write a tempo map of the song with the gutarist laying down scratch tracks, then have the drummer go in and lay down his drums to the scratch guitars and click track, which is ALMOST ALWAYS screwed up some how. Then layer everything else on top of that.

I've been thinking since I've acquired a 2nd fireface800 that instead of doing that lengthy (but in my opinion superior way of doing this) to cut down tracking time by just running the guitarists and bassist and into a Line 6 POD or some other emulator and split the signal so I get the dry signals later for re-amping, forget the click track and let the band play how they feel naturally. Afterwords punch in the guitar tracks and bass tracks (in parts they screwed up on), then let the vocalist record over that.

I know this is not the way to get the best and tightest sounding tracks, but for half the local bands here, who aren't always concerned about getting it super tight to a click track (usually hard-core bands) I'm thinking this may be a better way for them to get the tracking done faster. But still have the option of letting them do it the slower way as well.

My question is has anyone done this with decent results? I know I'll spend more time mixing since I'll have to re-amp the guitars and bass (right now I just spend time dialing in the sound for the mix and so far I've been getting great results that way).

Before I decide to go out and buy another DI Box and make a band waste their time trying it this way, what are everyone thoughts on this?

 

[ahjteam]

I did this when I was working at the Harju demostudio, but I did overdubs for almost everything.

 

[ElektricEyez]

I did this when I was working at the Harju demostudio, but I did overdubs for almost everything.

Other than timing issues, was the end result just as good?

Also, did it speed up the recording process?

 

[crosstalk]

I did this way back in the day. It was always a nightmare. Somebody fucks up and it makes everybody fuck up and since there's no click track, punching back in is a mess.

 

[morpheusmultimedia]

I did actually once but it was a rock/funky band and the reason for it was to capture the natural flow of the song - just to get the interaction of the drummer with the bass player and the rest of the band. Later we were redoing all the instruments later except the drums.

Can't imagine doing this with metal ))

 

[sk8ersick666]

i did this recently actually more out of the drummer needing to hear the entire band to be able to play his parts =/. It sounded like a good idea at first. Then we played it back and there was always something rushed or somewhere somehow during the song someone would fall behind and would try to catch up or vise versa and would mess everyone up. I scratching the guitar and bass tracks completely and just redoing them. Maybe it was the band I was recording but I was not happy with how it came out and wouldn't do it again (unless the freaking drummer needs it)

 

[JamesNorman]

ive done it with rock bands, and indie bands i recorded, this worked great and really got the feel of the song.......... but it wasnt the the typical tight sound you get in metal.

I would never record metal like this as it is a waste of time, metal is meant to be tight and sound overly tight. doing a live recording with a metal band would be hard as a lot of drummer over play things and lose it , meaning the whole recording would have to start again coz the punch in would not be tight.

 

[Lasse Lammert]

REALLY DEPENDS ON THE MUSIC.
I'VE DONE IT WITH JAZZ AND POP-ROCKY STUFF

(oops, sorry fpr caps-lock)

 

[if6was9]

I've done it with a kinda slow metal band, it was a few years ago. I wouldn't be mad to go do it again. As the guys say when someone messes up it messes everyone up. Punching in doesn't really work unless there's a stop in the song and guys performances are never as tight if they're not the only person tracking

 

[ze kink]

Probably gonna try doing it with a sludgy post-metal type band this autumn. But I want to hear how tight they are first; if it sounds sloppy to me, I'm gonna have to talk to them and persuade them to do it separately. We've done a jazz type band like this earlier at school and it turned out pretty good. We also recorded ourself doing some funky rock stuff like this earlier with the drummer, keyboardist and bassist playing at the same time, but the keys and bass were all DI and we overdubbed them later. Really helped to get an "organic" groove into it since we didn't want to use a click.

 

[ahjteam]

Other than timing issues, was the end result just as good?

Also, did it speed up the recording process?

About the time; The studio was owned by Helsinki city youth department and it had this weird policy; You had to be a Helsinki inhabitant, had to be under 25 and you were only allowed to reserve the studio for 2-3 days and record max 21 minute long record for non-commercial use (as it was a demostudio. But it was dirt cheap too, I think it was something like 50€ a day). So, I recorded, mixed and mastered 2-6 songs in those 2-3 days.

But the live method doesn't work so well for metal. I only recorded rock, grunge, pop, punk and indie bands. I didn't do any time editing, because at the time I sucked hard at it and it took longer to edit than record a new take and. The end result sounded like the band 99% of the time, in both good and bad, but most bands sounded ok... I guess. But there were some horrible cases too. If they couldn't play to a click, I turned it off after like 2-3 takes and then we just went freefall rather than spend 30% of their recording time to struggle with the click. But it sounded more organic too that way.

But with this method the first priority is to get the drums right. If someone else fucks up, I told to think it like a livegig; You don't stop, but play it till the end (unless the drummer fucks up). That way we got full band scratch tracks (and sometimes even keepers), then we just later replaced them with the proper takes and overdubs.

 

[aortizjr]

Depends on the band and budget.

There are plenty of pro producers that work this way. Andrew Scheps at a Waves seminar was showing his latest project which was done all live with no click. It was funny how the recording school students couldn't wrap their heads around this.

Metal I would avoid since everyone expects crazy robo tightness. But I wish bands would record live. There is a youtube video promo of Dillinger Escape Plan playing live:



DEP is a freak of nature, but I like this recording more than so many techy metal bands. Not because of the quality per-se, but the level of feeling and groove, makes the song and the players come alive. Same with watching live bands vs. their records. The records often sound so sterile.

Call me crazy, but I actually prefer groove. Or Arsis's Celebration of Guilt album, LOVE that album. If it is edited, it sure doesn't sound like it, and it is awesome.

Anyway I do a big chunk of recording in a single live room. With Amp Sims and such, some guys are super picky about their tone or they play wimpy since they don't dig in like they would with their amps. Assuming of course their amps don't suck. Also if they are in the same room, the drums will still bleed a tiny bit since they vibrate the strings.

So I just use Gobos that I made (OC703 | wood | air gap and glue | wood | OC703). They work extremely well. Bass I will Run DI since that is usually easier to make pleasing. Scratch vocal mic, gobo and have them facing away from the kit. With careful placement and such, the isolation is quite good. No room mic on the kit, well you can try it. I do a room mic for the whole band anyway. Haven't used it yet. Headphone mix for everyone.

Anyway check for good feel and watch for rushing and dragging of course. If drums fuck up, you are screwed, start over, unless it is a break or something. But I have had full-band punch-ins actually work, but be ready for some quick slip editing and I usually don't tell the band I can do that unless the rest of the take is amazing or we are on a try later than 4 or something.

Then after each take, if it felt good listen back, do guitar and bass punches right away. They are easy, you have to do it old-school, like a 4 track. Manually punch on a beat or bar. At least you can slip edit into place and crossfade after the fact. Leave out solos and vocals for later.

Be absolutely sure you double check isolation. There will be some bleed, but it should be very very slight. Use cardioid to your advantage. Mic placement and sound at tracking is very important since excessive EQ and compression can bring out badness, also you almost have to EQ and such in the mix, to make it all gel together. With good iso, punch-ins without all the other instruments playing should transparent.

Then overdub vocals and leads and additional guitars afterwards.

The band needs to be tight and actually play their songs. You can still edit manually or by editing the tempo track to match.

Last band I did this way (punk rock), we did 12 songs (40 minutes) in 15 hours including setup. Maybe 15 hours in overdubs spread out over a week but the vocalist was rough, took a lot of work with him. Also got side tracked with an acoustic song that took forever and a cello and gang vocals. Did mistake editing and minor stuff that was missed, starts, tails, noise, toms, pitch correction (voice and bass guitar), etc., but no grid locking or anything. Came out good, I didn't mix it. But no band skill inflation and they were happy and expressed a lot of joy in the experience compared to the usual stiff environment. And of course the price and speed at everything was done. Dupes were done a month later, and we all still have day jobs.

 

[ElektricEyez]

Wow thanks for all the responses! I think it really depends on the bands and from what else I'm gathering fast technical metal is a no no. A lot of hard core bands I record, not all of them, but a lot of them their stuff is relatively easy to play, with tons of break downs etc. I think I still might consider it an option depending on the band.

 

[plague_rider]

Free-er flowing music yes (i recorded funky jazz/rock/blues stuff in college this way)

some hardcore you could probably do the same...

technical metal needs to be so much cleaner...

 

[Arsenu,]

www.myspace.com/studentsofwarband

when we recorded the demo on our page it was done like you said: guitars, bass, drums together with no click and vocal over-dubs.

as you can clearsly hear you should never-ever let go of the click while tracking.
i love the idea of tracking a full band at once because it gives a "live" feeling but never let go of the click, and reherse a lot before tracking. those were my conclusions from our demo.

 

[amarshism]

If it's lacking flow it's because you're lacking a good click track. Be more tedious with it. This is why we do prepro. Does the band speed up into the chorus, does it slow down 2-3bpm when the cymbals go halftime, does the drum fill slow down into the next riff etc.

I'm actually in the lengthy process of yet again recovering a bands cd tracked somewhere else that I believe has recorded free time and with poor beat detective work to make some attempt at placing a grid behind it. Has made my life alot more difficult than it needed to be.

 

[greyskull]

yes and no.
liking it more now.
live takes to meticulous rehearsed clicks with insane ammounts of tempo changes,
or no click and then work out tempos and edit to that.
not with metalz though

 

[SkybluestudiosBEN]

If the band is super poor well do a "Live CD" hahaha but because my studio does not have enough isolation, I tend to stay away from it if were going for top quality.


The Haunted-Versus was tracked live by Tue Madsen, sounds pretty cool.

 

[Jind]

This method seems to have become one of the standard working process for Kevin "The Caveman" Shirley from several articles I've read about him or the artists he has recorded. He's used the "all together in one room" method on recordings with Iron Maiden and Joe Bonamassa including Iron Maiden's soon to be released "The Final Frontier". In a recent MusicRadar interview with Dave Murray, he stated the following about the experience:

According to guitarist Dave Murray, the sextet "breezed through the album, really. We actually finished it in six weeks. We were getting down a track a day - all playing together as a band, Bruce [Dickinson] singing, all in the same room, so there's a very live-in-the-studio feel to it. Once we finished a track, we'd jump straight into doing some extra guitar bits. It was very quick for us."

I think it's one of those things that can work when it is done well and as long as the music fits - as has been said over and over, for tight and fast modern metal it probably would not work, but for something like Maiden or something bluesy like Joe Bonamassa it would be fine.

As a side note - MusicRadar has a track by track review of "The Final Frontier" and it sound like they like it a lot - plus the commnets make it sound like a very proggy type album.

 

[Arsenu,]

i think most bands today would never pull it off with the exeption of Lamb Of God which are so unbelievably tight.

anyway it has always been my dream to have a really big expensive studio so the recording process will be:

pre-pro, tracking all at once, overdubs and mix. i think that's how Dream Theater recorded thier last 2 albums.....