Does originality eventually end?

[General Zod]

Ascension's criticism of Circus Maximus, that they're merely a Dream Theater/Symphony X hybrid, made me think; does a genre eventually reach a mature state? A mature state where nothing truly original is possible? And if so, has Metal, or more specifically Prog Metal, reached that state? At this point, is all that's left to do is borrow from here and there, and hope the combination of ingredients sounds somewhat fresh?

As for the whole idea of genre maturity, is anyone doing anything groundbreaking with Jazz, Blues, Rock or Classical music?

As a clarification, I don't share Ascension's view of Circus Maximus. I think they're an elite band with elements spanning a range as wide Queensryche to Kansas. Regardless, this thread isn't about Circus Maximus and how original they are. It was merely Ascension's comment about them that got me thinking.

Zod

 

[Gunstar9]

I believe that everyone who puts their hearts into the music they make creates something original regardless of genre. At the same time with so many people doing so many things of course things will come off as similar. Sometimes even the same thing may be created. In the end music is art and art is all about personal expression.

"There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be you
in time - It's easy.

There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy."

 

[Cheiron]

Ascension applies his criteria when it fits his point, but not when it goes against his point, or bands he loves. All bands have clear influences, and anybody you want to say lacks creativity, you can point to their clear influences. Creativity is about combining what has been done, with your own emotions, skills, desires, etc. Of course, there are bands that seem to lack more creativity than others. However, I don't see anything stale about any genre.

 

[Dustin]

years ago, especially at the end of the thrash-era, I was feeling this way about metal. The scene was fairly saturated with "C" level bands that were mimicking the "A" and "B" list bands note-for-note in sound and style. It was very cumbersome, and I briefly wrote it all off and started digging back to older bands just to find something new, or in that case back then, something more original from the originators themselves. This is how I started getting to bands like Yes, ELP, early Genesis, Dio and Tony-era Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep ect. ect. ect.

With the rise of the grunge movement, I found myself pretty much latching onto ANYTHING resembling melodic rock, metal, thrash, death… whatever didn't sound like what was on the radio here in the U.S. circa 93'-97', and I can tell you, there was slim pickings back then when it came to going into a brick and mortar store, and it was a gamble no matter what.. then the internet propigated and that changed things massively.

Anyhow, due to this, I eventually started to re-think my assessment as to music in general, not just metal, but everything out there. And this thought process also stands with the prog/power genre today. For me, I no longer give a crap about originality, in fact, I believe Chris DeGarmo said it best in an interview, "Nobody's original, everybody's just uniquely derivative."

With that in mind, I no longer listen to anything with the pretense of "originality", I only concentrate on weather or not they can write good songs. In my listening experience, bands that are too overly original, or try too hard to be, end up becoming terrible songwriters eventually if they are not already. They sacrifice being listenable for the sake of art, and I'm just not into that at all. I have heard bands that are fairly unoriginal in sound and style - Circus Maximus as an example - however a band like Circus Maximus writes killer songs and do it with class! What's wrong with that? I love it!!! In rare cases, some of these bands write better songs than the bands they emulate! It's seems a lot of people like to think that their listening preferences are very eclectic, and focus far too much on originality. For me, their missing out on some good music; it's about the songs and the delivery… originality be damned. Granted, there are some clone bands out there that have no songwriting ability whatsoever, but it's to be expected.

Anytime I read a review or an opinion of someone's take on a band, and they immediately write them off as unoriginal, It usually drives me to investigate the band further, as I have to hear for myself if they can deliver a few good songs. I have discovered several great artists/albums who have absolutely no originality in their sound or style at all,, or have a singer that sounds like a clone of another more popular vocalist, but they are probably the best songwriters I have ever heard to date, and surpass the originators by miles. Excellent songs = Excellent album IMO.

 

[Met-Al]

That's an interesting question, Zod!

In my opinion, originality will never disappear from any art form. As long as human beings and technology continue to evolve, there will always be new discoveries to be made. In music alone, the twentieth century brought more diversity than all of the previous centuries combined. I don't think the problem lies in a lack of originality amongst a particular art form. Instead, I feel that the problem is the increase in exposure to a particular art form that we as humans now possess due to advances in technology. I'm sure that other folks will disagree with me on this subject, but I can only write from my own experience. I'm always finding innovative music, especially in the realm of progressive metal.


Stay metal. Never rust.
Albert

 

[St Enigma]

Music never will "become mature", it morphs constantly. (Nomen ist omen: Amorphis ) People will invent new instruments and develop them further. A hundred years ago we didn't have but acoustic instruments like banjos and violins, horns and drums, now what; several types of electric guitars, computers and synths and even such an ancient instrument type as drums are different and made of new syntethic materials.

Or let's take the Apocalyptica's way: they use old instruments for a new music style. The guys are trained classical cello players from the Sibelius Acdemy and have played classical in big orchestras and little chamber orchestras even after they started playing metal. Therion and Nightwish use full classical orchestras... Always will be new combinations and new instruments for creative people.

In Europe melodic metal isn't much rebellion any more but an appreciated form of art. New bands are put up by thousands and always a few will always find their own thing which will make it to the crowds and turn into a subgenre. Morphing, developing. Many people believe that the symphonic side of metal will turn out to become the new form of classical music, heck, even prime ministers and presidents go to see metal shows. Timo Kotipelto, Jani Liimatainen and Matias Kupiainen were asked to play for the President of Russia and the President of Finland just a few months ago.

Human creativity remain and will turn into originality like it always done with art. No worries.

.

 

[The Invisible Guest]

I don't think anything is very original any longer in the genres I listen to. Of late I have been trying not to throw out the generic card too often since nothing to me seem all that original to begin with.


Britt

 

[BenMech]

Interesting question Zod. I'm plenty guilty of dividing lines between creators and lemmings in whatever genre.

I'll say creativity will never go away, forging new things, but the origin point will continually move over. That's why Progressive Rock and Metal and whatever else gets the Progressive tag isn't the same as "Prog" in one defined format.

The question is, do the new forms/bands acknowledge the amount of history without spoofing or outright mocking those who came before?

 

[adaher]

I was just thinking about this myself. It seems that most metal bands who are "creative" are merely combining metal with other known styles and creating a cool mishmash.

Originality never ends, there's always something totally new to do. But I've noticed that there tend to be only about 5% of bands who are doing anything new and the other 95% draw from other bands.

I'd also like to make a point about originality and accessibility. There's a lot of bands out there who do things completely out of left field. It's original, but it only appeals to a small group of people. The true mark of brilliance, IMO, is to create something original, but which is also accessible. Something that can actually be enjoyed by the average fan.

And although this isn't original, I like it when one band takes an idea from another band that didn't execute it so well and takes the idea to a new place. Yngwie Malmsteen had some promising ideas about taking metal neoclassical, but he never really pushed the envelope after Rising Force. A lot of power metal bands took the Yngwie influence and ran with it much further.

 

[Magius]

You would have to clearly define "originality" to accurately answer this question. Does it mean the development and application of an entirely new element? Or does it mean being the first to blend various pre-existing elements? Is it also relevant as to whether or not "originality" makes a significant difference? One which someone with a passing or no interest in said genre would notice?

In the case of the second definition, then yes. There are certainly bands blending different elements to come up with something at least slightly different.

In the case of Circus Maximus, as you cited, they blend elements from Dream Theater, Queensryche, and Kansas, all of which have been done before. Prog fans may find that refreshing, but to me they just sound like any other Prog Metal band.
Raintime is another that comes to mind. They blend Power and Melodic Death Metal with Dance Club Pop. All pre-existing elements the last of which I am completely disinterested in. However, Riantime definitely grabs and holds my attention.
Likewise, Orphaned Land blends Prog and Death Metal with Middle Eastern Folk. All pre-existing elements, but to someone with little interest in Prog they definitely sound different.

These bands may have a unique sound, but that doesn't settle the debate of whether or not mearly combining what others have done before is truly original.

In using the first definition I don't find much, if any, originality in any genre, and frankly I don't care. The important thing is whether or not a band does what they do well. And the bottom line is whetether or not I like it.

 

[Ascension]

Actually...my comment concerning CM was aimed toward their derivative nature. They are so to the point that it's so easy to point out the specific areas. My comment about their cloning of the Rudess keyboard patch is case in point...l mean it's blatant. The keyboard player just doesn't have Rudess's skill but not many do. But that makes the fact that he's trying to emulate even worse. And a total rip of Romeo's guitar tone. And of course their song structures are just flat from the DT/SyX drawing board...almost a paint by numbers. l like what they do...they definitely bring it, the passion is there...especially the vocalist who gives them a dimension that another singer maybe couldn't do. I just hear other bands that came before them that don't get the hype CM does...yet they accomplish prog metal just as well if not better. l'd put a band like Labyrinth above CM any day.

 

[J-Man]

Is this where we try and build a better mouse-trap or make the paper-clip better. Let's take the wheel, Is it original? No, does anyone say it is a copy of the old stone wheel of 8,000 years ago or the wooden wheels of the 19 century? No, but it has been refined and twiked here and there until it is what we have today. Will it get better? Oh hell yes, until the day comes when all wheels are used for is for our vehicle, whatever it maybe uses wheels use to rest on.

Originality needs a place to start, Did Dream Theater copy anyone? To a point yes, and what did they do? They built on it, refined it until what we have today is everyone saying "So and So is a Dream Theater clone". To me some ot the most Original music comes from bands from the middle east, taking the progressive elements, and combining them with their Middle Eastern heritage.

Take a look back some of you may remember these bands some may not.

60's Fat Mattress, King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Mother's Of Invention lead to.........

70's Yes, Rush, Kansas, Boston, Emerson, Lake, Palmer which leads to .............

80's Asia, and others's which lead to ...... and so on and so on, are the all original not really they just take an idea and make it better, adding a little of this and little that.

Difference between Circus Maximus and Dream Theater, is Circus Maximus adds a little AOR to the mix and then there is Micheal's voice.

 

[Ascension]

Difference between Circus Maximus and Dream Theater, is Circus Maximus adds a little AOR to the mix and then there is Micheal's voice.

Hmm...DT did the AOR thing on Images & Words hence part of it's popularity....so making that statement only damns CM worse. Michael's voice? Sure, talented...l give him props. The same could be said about James Labrie...love him or hate him...if it wasn't for his vocals in I&M...the breakout factor of that release isn't as substantial or doesn't happen at all. That could be argued. Remember...Dominici was a failure on WDaDU. DT wasn't a hit on their 1st release.

 

[J-Man]

Hmm...DT did the AOR thing on Images & Words hence part of it's popularity....so making that statement only damns CM worse. Michael's voice? Sure, talented...l give him props. The same could be said about James Labrie...love him or hate him...if it wasn't for his vocals in I&M...the breakout factor of that release isn't as substantial or doesn't happen at all. That could be argued. Remember...Dominici was a failure on WDaDU. DT wasn't a hit on their 1st release.

Not being a big DT fan I didn't know about them doing some AOR, thanks for the clarification, but in my opinion it doesn't damn them. yeah I am CM fanboy, I really, really like them. As far as Charlie Dominici goes I have only heard his stuff with the Solid Vision guys.

 

[Diabolik]

I have to agree with Dustin. Back in the mid to late 80's originality was a thing of the past in metal. All the bigger acts were putting out crap. The newer bands were just mimicking thier sound from a few years back. Things were very stale.

I dont think originality is that important to me. I think quality and catchiness it what appeals to me. I think some people look for some type of extreme originality to show superior taste and like looking down on a person who may like stuff labeled generic. I guess it all comes in waves.....it wasnt but a few years ago where most of this forum were raving about Dragonforce, Stratovarius, Sonata and others who are not added to a long list of bands people love to crack on.

there are bands that seem to always add to thier sound to keep it fresh...which is a good thing. A band does need to evolve or else you fall into that Rage / Running Wild / Grave Digger catagory. All great bands but every disc pretty much is the same. Sure there are stand out tracks and better disc, but when you look at the output as a whole...it is just decades of the same thing. When bands try to mix it up...it usually divides the fans in half. Look at Edguy....a band that not really changed thier sound but altered thier style and now seem to have more haters than fans.

Those fans who are into more of the tech side and prog...sure they are the ones who are going to be searching for the more innovative and original sounds. Casual fans of metal are going to go after what ever sounds good. It can be a debate to the end of time but I do think all genres of music this ends up happening to. It then kind of backs away for a time and then a few newer bands emerge with a fresh take on the style and sound and gives it rebirth. You can look at the past 40 years of music in all genres and see this pattern.

 

[zedowns]

Not being a big DT fan I didn't know about them doing some AOR, thanks for the clarification, but in my opinion it doesn't damn them. yeah I am CM fanboy, I really, really like them. As far as Charlie Dominici goes I have only heard his stuff with the Solid Vision guys.

You need to stop listening to whatever it is you're listening to and get Images and Words ASAP. There's 0 reason a fan of prog metal shouldn't have this album.

 

[Ascension]

Not being a big DT fan... As far as Charlie Dominici goes I have only heard his stuff with the Solid Vision guys.

So...you listen to Charlie who just happened to be DT's 1st vocalist on a recording...who is backed by a band that at one time was DT tribute band. But you're not into DT. A bit odd.

Like zedowns said...grab Images & Words...it's the epitome prog metal release.

 

[J-Man]

So...you listen to Charlie who just happened to be DT's 1st vocalist on a recording...who is backed by a band that at one time was DT tribute band. But you're not into DT. A bit odd.

Like zedowns said...grab Images & Words...it's the epitome prog metal release.

Send me a copy, just kidding i will try and get a copy and give it a spin.

 

[edgeofthorns]

I only concentrate on weather or not they can write good songs. In my listening experience, bands that are too overly original, or try too hard to be, end up becoming terrible songwriters eventually if they are not already. They sacrifice being listenable for the sake of art, and I'm just not into that at all. I have heard bands that are fairly unoriginal in sound and style - Circus Maximus as an example - however a band like Circus Maximus writes killer songs and do it with class! What's wrong with that? I love it!!!

I totally agree with this! Glenn has accused me of being a "purist" on here before. Quite frankly, I took it as a compliment. I know what I like and I like bands that do it well, period!

~Brian~

 

[mëtålspëd]

Send me a copy, just kidding i will try and get a copy and give it a spin.

Check yer PMs bud

You need to stop listening to whatever it is you're listening to and get Images and Words ASAP. There's 0 reason a fan of prog metal shouldn't have this album.

I am not a big DT fan, but I give I&W vast amounts of kudos.


As for the question at hand... I know the stagnation of the genres I have come to know and love, is leading me to find other musical mistresses. Perhaps stagnation is not the best description, since in reality many bands have the "sound" down to a science... and they have never sounded better. Seventh Wonder is a GLARING example for me.. its like they read the prog metal text book, and copied the answers from the back of it.

Ive been listening to a lot of atmospheric metal, folk metal, and a lot of straight up classical (this more than any of the others). Due to the caliber of bands around these days... "good enough" doesn't cut it now. I find myself quite disillusioned by all these new power and prog bands that sound alike.