Dynamics and triggering (a question for Andy, as well)

[SickBoy]

Mr.Nine's Megadeth topic reminded me of something that bothers me for some time... Do you people feel that there is a tendency nowadays to "over-trigger" the drums and almost fully kill the original players dynamics?

I understand that it's a simple way to achieve great results and sounds, especially in more extreme metal genres, where drums really struggle to find their way through the wall of very heavy guitar sounds... But isn't it becoming a sort of a trend to totally dehumanize the drum sound? Sometimes I stop and wonder if it's a real drummer or a machine and then I hear that the cymbals are natural and realize it's been triggered with very few dynamic levels left...
The drum sounds I like the most are Richard Christy's on Death's "Sound of Perseverance", Control Denied album and especially Iced Earth's "Horror Show". So punchy, so tight and so LIVE.

I feel that Andy also tends to cut the dynamics with triggers a wee bit too much, like with the new Masterplan recording... Care to explain why, Andy? I'm really curious, cause for one Küsch is one hell of a drummer and had very good acoustic drums sounds before, I especially like his "Time Of The Oath" drum sound. Is it the budget, your personal preference or whatever? Looking forward to the answer...

 

[Ermz]

I suppose it's a quick and efficient way of getting tight drum sounds, meaning you spend less time adjusting mics and generally playing around with the drums themselves because you know you can always overlay them with different samples later on.

I personally don't mind. Whatever sound a band opt to have is done consciously and I believe whatever drum sounds complement the records. I really like tight drums, so I don't mind converting to MIDI.. quantization, overlays, mixing in some new samples with the original... whatever. It's just about laying down the best sound you can on the record.

I go to a gig to hear a 'live' sound, I don't buy a CD for it.

 

[DIOBOLIC5150]

I'm on the fence here. I love the sound of an acoustic kit, but it has to be recorded right and has to be a sound that fits the rest of the music. The sound Death got with Richard Christy is absolutely beautiful, I agree with sick boy there. It would have destroyed that album to have triggered the drums. However, not everyone is Richard Christy, so we might need to cover up what the drummer might actually be doing. Some drummers might be incredible, but have poor "recording dynamic".
I have only recorded my own band, and a handfull of friends' bands. I triggered every time because it was easier to get a consistant sound, it sounded more professional, covered a couple miss-hits, and blended better with the guitars (gave the guitars some clarity by defining the notes better with a good kick sample). If you play fast metal, it always sounds good to get that kick sounding even and consistant, at least to me.
Sometimes it's to make up for shitty drums, mics, ect. I mean look at the drummer from KSE... he uses like this 2pc kit that just makes you curl up laughing at it on stage. But on the album... it sounds like it's a 40 inch kick with a snare to match. Sometimes it's just about the sound you want to pull off, that's my guess.

 

[Andy Sneap]

cant comment on masterplan, didnt mix it, still not heard it!

 

[MR NINE]

Mr.Nine's Megadeth topic reminded me of something that bothers me for some time... Do you people feel that there is a tendency nowadays to "over-trigger" the drums and almost fully kill the original players dynamics?

I understand that it's a simple way to achieve great results and sounds, especially in more extreme metal genres, where drums really struggle to find their way through the wall of very heavy guitar sounds... But isn't it becoming a sort of a trend to totally dehumanize the drum sound? Sometimes I stop and wonder if it's a real drummer or a machine and then I hear that the cymbals are natural and realize it's been triggered with very few dynamic levels left...
The drum sounds I like the most are Richard Christy's on Death's "Sound of Perseverance", Control Denied album and especially Iced Earth's "Horror Show". So punchy, so tight and so LIVE.

I feel that Andy also tends to cut the dynamics with triggers a wee bit too much, like with the new Masterplan recording... Care to explain why, Andy? I'm really curious, cause for one Küsch is one hell of a drummer and had very good acoustic drums sounds before, I especially like his "Time Of The Oath" drum sound. Is it the budget, your personal preference or whatever? Looking forward to the answer...

Only now I saw this thread. I just finished to write a similar subject in the MEGADETH _ Remasters thread. What a coincidence! :Spin:
Oh yeah!!! That's a wonderful drum sound on "The Sound Of Preserverance"!!!

 

[johnzorn]

Speaking of good natural drum sounds (kicks especially) and in the Richard Christy vein, I'm a fan of Tomas Haake's kit sound. I haven't really atuned my ears to differing types of triggered kicks, but I believe Tomas's is 100% pure maple. At least on Chaosphere and Nothing. But again, I can normally tell if a kick is trigger if it has that "click" to it and is not so "full" sounding. Oh, and I dispise a triggered snare. And triggered toms. The only thing I can handle being triggered is a kick drum and thats it. If your gonna spend the money on a damn good snare, why trigger it? But thats my rant. Long live good, full, natural kicks.

 

[Leper_/-\ffinity]

Someone wanna tell me what all is triggered on VItal Remains' Dechristianize?!? That is some insane drumming, and I know the bass is definitely triggered, but is the snare and toms as well? Im with most, saying it depends on the drummer, while it may not have worked out well for Vital Remains to not trigger atleast the bass drum, records like Opeth's Deliverance (nothing too special about the record) have a fantastic natural kit sound thanks to Lopez being able to pull that stuff off real well. Or am I stupid and they triggered that album too? Anyways, I really LOVE the drum sound on Deliverance, as well as Dechristianize, and I think exchanging the two (how they were recorded) would ruin both for me possibly, so it goes both ways.

 

[Brett - K A L I S I A]

I can hardly believe that "Dechristianize" was even recorded by a human person at all... Especially when you know it's the guy who plays guitars and bass too who did them...

 

[egan.]

But again, I can normally tell if a kick is trigger if it has that "click" to it and is not so "full" sounding. Oh, and I dispise a triggered snare. And triggered toms. The only thing I can handle being triggered is a kick drum and thats it. If your gonna spend the money on a damn good snare, why trigger it? But thats my rant. Long live good, full, natural kicks.

The click and thinness of samples are a result of an EQ thing, not a trigger thing. If you use a full sample with no click, that's the sound you'll get.
In regards to snares, this is an additude I long held until I realized that what I hate are poorly triggered snares and toms.....until I realized that tons of my favorite "natural" drum sounds had triggers mixed in. The fact is you're hard pressed to find any metal record (or rock record for tht matter) that doesn't incorporate some use of drum triggering/replacement these days.
You can do it and have it sound like a drum machine or you can do it and gain consitency and power. Besides the fact that you can trigger samples of the actual kit and certainly you can mix the triggered sounds with miced sounds.
I certainly agree that triggers have changed the way things sound, but I think that too oftem people presume things are natural when in fact the triggering is just very well done. They may not be the case for you tho.

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

Hey Egan, good christmas at DD-HQ?

On topic: As far as I'm concerned one should only trigger kicks unless something goes direly wrong with the tapes or whatever.

I hate triggered toms for example. Check out the last Vital Remains album... thats the textbook example of how not to trigger toms!

edit: just noticed Dechristianise was allready mentioned...

 

[Ermz]

I love Dechristianize. That record actually clips on this set of speakers because of how hot they ran it. It's almost like the epitome of everything mechanical, pumped and lacking all natural feel.

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

Their old albums are better heh.

Glenn Benton should just retire, he's a fucking joke these days.

Dechrist... is way too longwinded and wanky for my liking, its like... oh wow another harmonised lead...

 

[SickBoy]

I personally don't mind. Whatever sound a band opt to have is done consciously and I believe whatever drum sounds complement the records. I really like tight drums, so I don't mind converting to MIDI.. quantization, overlays, mixing in some new samples with the original... whatever. It's just about laying down the best sound you can on the record.

I go to a gig to hear a 'live' sound, I don't buy a CD for it.

My intention when I started this topic wasn't to bash triggers, but to point out that there's a trend of misuse, whereas they're used carelessly and there's very little of the original drummer's feel and/or sound left. I agree that probably many drummers aren't consistent enough to be recorded purely acoustically, but hey - is that an excuse to totally remove and ruin the acoustic sound of the kit?! Not to mention dynamics...
If we can convert the signal from audio to MIDI domain, wouldn't it be logical to correct _some_ of the dynamics in MIDI and not to _remove_ them...

I'm think the triggers are a way to achieve very decent drum sounds out of even crappy kits, but it's very easy to overdo them, as many recent recordings show... Right now I'm recording my band and the kit we borrowed (Sonor Force3000, quite good actually) had skins on toms a few years old, that's the financial state we're in... The kick and the snare came out ok, but the toms are absolutely horrible and that's where the triggers will save the day.

 

[SickBoy]

cant comment on masterplan, didnt mix it, still not heard it!

So you're not the one responsible for triggering on that album?
I think someone told me Mikko Karmila of Finnvox did the mix...

 

[_RiseInside_]

the other day I was trying to remember the sneapesque way to trigger drums...

Is it using the triggers to open noise gates or something like that ? Don´t you use the midi note the trigger sends, Andy ? I can´t actually remember...

Someone care to explain

 

[egan.]

the other day I was trying to remember the sneapesque way to trigger drums...

Is it using the triggers to open noise gates or something like that ? Don´t you use the midi note the trigger sends, Andy ? I can´t actually remember...

Someone care to explain

he records the trigger to an audio channel and uses it to feed a gate and/or to feed the trigger brain

 

[Ermz]

Can you expand a bit on that, egan?

 

[blackcom]

People!! You are comparing apples to oranges!

-Triggers and Acoustic is just two different flavours.

-Triggers are not just one sound. You can choose between natural samples with lots of dynamics or even multisamples or you could go for a super synthetic, static clicky sound or something in between. You can even make one sample containing of may others (layers).

-You can mix triggers with the original signal. Blend or mix to desired taste.

-Triggers saves a lot of money. You don't need a super expensive drum-kit, new heads, expensive microphones, expensive mic-preamps, expensive converters.

-Triggers can make a drummer with poor dynamics sound like he's slamming with stable dynamics and punch. So it can save a lot if time. Not everyone is Thomas Hake.

-Triggers can be an important part of a bands sound (Pantera, FearFactory)

-Triggers makes it easier to add clarity and separation to a mix.

-Triggers might do more justice to some sorts of machine-gun-type riffs.

-If you don't like triggers just don't use them yourself but allow others to have a different opinion and taste.

 

[Hopkins-WitchfinderGeneral]

People!! You are comparing apples to oranges!

-Triggers and Acoustic is just two different flavours.

Thankyou.

Listen to this guy, he has an intellect.

 

[SickBoy]

People!! You are comparing apples to oranges!
<cut>

Look, it's all true what you're saying, but with this topic I was aiming at the misuse of triggers, in the way that the player's dynamic is practically gone.
That's what I dislike about the use of triggers, but I generally consider them a great tool, but like everything, they should be used with cleverly, not just with 2 dyn.layers and that's it.