Engl Savage 60 Tubes

[::XeS::]

Hi
I have a savage 60 and the sound is very good but I wanna try to obtain a more modern and "extreme" sound.
The tubes are:

PRE
V1 -> ECC83/7025 F.Q.
V2, V3 -> ECC83/12AX7 selected
V4 -> ECC83/12AX7 standard

POWER
V5, V6 -> EL 34 /6CA7matched sets (Groove Tubes)

My first question is: what's the difference between selected, standard and matched?
Second question: I've seen that Fireball and Powerball have 12AX7 (and not 7025) in the first position. If I change it can I obtain some improvements?
Changing only the pre tubes can I have improvements in the bottom end/fizzy areas?

Thank you guys

 

[JBroll]

Standard will be the 'run-of-the-mill' tubes. Selected will be held to tighter standards in a few properties. Matched will be a pair of tubes that are very similar in as many properties as possible.

12AX7 is ECC83 is 7025, no improvements should be expected apart from those that come from a normal replacement with quality tubes.

If your tubes need replacing you will get an improvement out of switching them, but I wouldn't expect the world out of a switch.

Jeff

 

[2012]

Give JJ a call @ Eurotubes 503-659-7401 and tell him what you have, and what you'd like to be hearing, and see what he recommends. But here are some ideas...

Power Amp: JJ KT77s.

Preamp: JJ ECC83s (hi-gain) or try Tung-Sol 12AX7s or Shuguang Silver Dragon 12AX7s.

-short descriptions-

Tung-Sol 12AX7: Beefy, clean and quiet. clean mid and treble response with plenty of headroom. Lush overtones, especially when overdriven.

JJ KT77: The long awaited for JJ / Tesla KT77 is here. A direct replacement for any EL34 / 6CA7, the JJ / Tesla KT77 has a lot of power and headroom but is surprisiongly refined sounding. We love this tube in Marshalls and for any Hi-Fi application using EL34 / 6CA7.

-JJ's observations-

KT77: The story behind this tube is that it was made by JJ at my request after meeting with them. I quietly sacrificed a pair of my original GEC KT77 for them to test and then break apart (while I wasn't looking) to reverse engineer. The result is a stunning new production KT77 that has all the qualities I coveted in the original. The JJ KT77 has a slightly deeper low end than the JJ E34L and they have a nice sizzle on the top end without getting brittle and the mid range harmonic structure is very complex. The clean tone is very fat and full and the when driven to saturation the crunch has more of a chunk to it.

ECC83s: The ECC83S is great tube with a tight low end, a very natural and harmonically complex mid with VERY good definition and a sweet high end that is not brittle. These tubes have very low microphonics and are great in the gain stages of high gain amps like Marshalls, Meas's and Peaveys to name a few.

ECC803s: This is the latest 12AX7 offering from JJ and once again it's a beautiful sounding tube. It's the longest plate 12AX7 type tube ever made. It has the same deep, tight low end that the ECC83S has but the mids in the ECC803S are even thicker and more harmonically complex than the ECC83S. The ECC803S is also a little hotter in the high end than the ECC83S. These are however not as high in gain as the JJ ECC83S. The ECC803S's are about 10% lower in gain. This is a great tube for V1 positions or for use in all positions in vintage amps. I do not recommend them for use in the gain stages of high gain amps if you like to run your gain maxed out. All preamp tubes are microphonic it's just a matter of where the threshold is and longer plate tubes will squeal before a short plate tube will, so for real high gain amps I would stay with the ECC83S or better yet the graded high gain ECC83S's that I hand pick for high gain amps. I also do not recommend these in small combo amps where the tubes are in close proximity to the speaker.

Good luck with it!

 

[::XeS::]

Thank you for the explanation
I'm reading Eurotubes website now...anyone know how can I contact the staff?
I would ask something to them but I didn't find any contact..

 

[2012]

It's right at the top of the homepage. Devilishly hidden...

503-659-7401

 

[GuitarHack]

Their email response is excellent.

eurotubes@cnnw.net


I put the JJ ECC83S and 6l6GC in my amp and it made quite a difference. Much tighter low and much less fizzy top end. Love the room sound, major improvement but still trying to get a recorded tone that I am 100% satisfied with. More my fault than the tubes though.

 

[trym^^]

imho electro harmonix ecc83 are the best option for my savage 120.
after having jjs in there i liked the sound alot more after swapping.

 

[::XeS::]

I have just opened my Savage and the pre tubes are Ruby...
My goals are:
- Fizzyness Reduction
- Bottom end improvement
- Sound more clear

Obviously, littles improvements

 

[::XeS::]

Ok...Eurotubes answers my email:

"For what you want I would go with three of the high gain ECC83S's for V1, V2 and V3. These have about 10% more gain over the standards but they won't hurt your clean. I would used a balanced ECC83S for the phase inverter position (the tube that farthest from the input jack). For power tubes you have a few options. You can go with the E34Ls' or the KT77's.

The JJ E34L's provide a deeper low end and are more aggressive and punchy than an EL34. The E34L is tighter with slightly more headroom and power with a more aggressive crunch, a very articulate British tone.

The JJ KT77's have even a bit more low end extension than the JJ E34L's and they have a nice sizzle in the top end that is not brittle. The clean tone is very fat and full and the crunch at loud volumes has more of a chunk to it and it's very punchy but not quite as aggressive as the E34L, a great tube for rhythm and solo work if you like the pushed mid and upper mid tone that all EL34 type tubes have.

Either of the tubes will take in the direction you want to go.

A full retube with the JJ E34L’s, three high gain ECC83S’s and one balanced ECC83S for the phase inverter would run 77.00.

A full retube with KT77’s and the same front end would be 84.00."

 

[VH100R]

imho electro harmonix ecc83 are the best option for my savage 120.
after having jjs in there i liked the sound alot more after swapping.

you and me! EH 12ax7... nice preamp tubes.

to ::XeS::

the general opinion is that one should not put JJ's ecc83 on the entire preamp has it tend to sound very muddy.

lots of posts about this on Harmony-central (amp forum).

good luck with the tube quest!

also try www.tube-store.com there's some reviews/comparisons about tubes.

 

[::XeS::]

Uhm...I explained my request to eurotubes and it gave me those advice...aaaaaaaaaaaargh....Now I'm very confused :\

 

[2012]

A lot of people don't like JJ's in their guitar amps, but everyone is different.

EH makes really good tubes for modern amps, and they are cheap. There was a time when a lot of their stock coming out had problems but that has been sussed out and anything you'd buy new today should be trouble-free. EH 12AX7s can found had for about $8, so you could pick up a handful of them and a handful of something else. Since you have JJ's in there already, I would try Tung-Sols or Silver Dragons and see how they compare to the JJ's that in there and to the EHs. Just remember to get 'hi-gain' selected tubes and 'balanced' for the phase inverter. The V1 (input stage) and phase inverter position (V4) are the most important tone-wise, so you should see the biggest change coming from those positions.

For tube mics and preamps, EH would probably be the last tube I would swap in. Some people love NOS Mullards in their guitar amps for instance, because of the high end rolloff. You might even have success swapping out just the V1 and the phase inverter positions with Tung-Sols or Silver Dragons, etc. Remember: every amp, tube preamp, and mic is different, so tubes you love in one unit might make your nuts itch in another.

I would want to try JJ KT77s in the power stage, though.

I plan to try KT88s in my Dual Rec when the time comes.

Good luck!

 

[VH100R]

::XeS::

you can have different 12ax7/ecc83 tube brands in your preamp.
Why not buy different ones and experiment instead of replacing all of them with the same tube brand?

seriously do a search on HC in the amp forum... there's tons of info about tubes.

I'm using the EH in the pre. Heard good things about the 9th generation chinese's and tung-sols and of course EH...

preamp tubes don't need biasing so you can experiment at will.

take care

LG

 

[WeeFace]

I have svetlana 6L6GCs, Harma STR 12ax7s with an RFT on the input. That's in a Fireball though, but when it comes to replacement, I'm keeping the same

 

[GuitarMaestro]

I would REALLY love if someone would do a proper comparison of tubes. He would have to reamp the same take through different tube brands/configurations. I kinda suspect that you cannot hear a significant difference(at least not of the magnitude the tube vendors rave about)....This tube talk is so voodoo. Just look at what the guy from eurotubes wrote:

The JJ E34L's provide a deeper low end and are more aggressive and punchy than an EL34. The E34L is tighter with slightly more headroom and power with a more aggressive crunch, a very articulate British tone.

How can each tube be "more agressive" than the other?

 

[VH100R]

I agree with him.

its all in the mids really.

a el34 sounds more aggressive to me than a 6L6 because of those mids. And the E34Ls I tried sounded really crunchy and aggressive.

but the 6L6 sounds heavier because its fuller and more smooth, almost 3D like, although the el34 has more bass,is tighter and has more bite to it...

yep... its kinda voodoo.

 

[VH100R]

I have svetlana 6L6GCs, Harma STR 12ax7s with an RFT on the input. That's in a Fireball though, but when it comes to replacement, I'm keeping the same

how did the Svets compared to the stock ones on the fireball?

 

[::XeS::]

Hi
Today my bias tester arrived so I'm looking which tubes I'll mount on my amp.
My idea:
V1 -> Tung sol 12ax7
V2,V3 -> jj 12ax7
V4 (PI) -> Tung sol 12ax7 matched and balanced / jj 12ax7 matched and balanced

V5,V6 -> JJ KT77

I choose tung sol for the input stage and for the PI (because they seem very good and they are the FJA's favourites), JJ for the other 2 slots because they are cheaper

What do you think?

 

[Metaltastic]

Nice choices dude, I'm gonna get me a Tung-Sol for my V1 as well! I look forward to hearing your impressions of the KT77's...

 

[::XeS::]

I don't know if it's better to have selected/matched/balanced tubes in every slot or if it's good only in particular slots.
I've dedided to put M&B tubes in the phase inverter slot and maybe in the imput slot (and the 2 power tubes....the more they are similar, the better is)..
Any advice?