JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
What are you talking about? We have tons of Indians in the US, they just all live on reservations.
Facts for the anti-gun faggots
- Thread starter indecizo
- Start date
I don't even....
To the original poster:
Living in what is called (depending on the day) either one of the most violent cities in the country, or in the world (lawls for many reasons at both of those terms, which I won't get into, but a rudimentary understanding of how numbers work would explain), passing a conceal and carry law has done...well. Nothing.
Zero.
Zip.
Also, I'm not anti-gun, but, as NdGT said: "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it," which can be applied to all stats and data. Numbers don't lie, but those who present those numbers may try. Writing off anyone who has a desire to debate any topic as a "faggot" puts you solidly in the category of people who no longer have any value to intelligent debate.
Have fun living a narrow-minded life.
To the original poster:
Living in what is called (depending on the day) either one of the most violent cities in the country, or in the world (lawls for many reasons at both of those terms, which I won't get into, but a rudimentary understanding of how numbers work would explain), passing a conceal and carry law has done...well. Nothing.
Zero.
Zip.
Also, I'm not anti-gun, but, as NdGT said: "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it," which can be applied to all stats and data. Numbers don't lie, but those who present those numbers may try. Writing off anyone who has a desire to debate any topic as a "faggot" puts you solidly in the category of people who no longer have any value to intelligent debate.
Have fun living a narrow-minded life.
He's Dead, Jim
Member
For the sake of space I won't quote the entire post, but:
-Appreciate the use of statistics, but there have been serious, quantitative and sociological studies conducted on gun violence in the United States vis-à-vis other countries, and comparing us to Switzerland, while valuable in some respects, leaves us with a sample size of 2. You also need to take into account all the other western, industrialized countries that do have restrictive gun laws and low homicide and gun-related violence rates, rather than the one crazy tiny libertarian country in Europe where everybody lives on a mountain, is rich, and has had no history of race-based economic inequality leading to poverty and urban violence.
-Secondarily, if Americans are really more angry and inclined to violence, why should we have a bunch of guns?
I grew up in a state with some of the loosest concealed carry laws in the country and an incredibly low gun-related homicide (and homicide in general) rate, so I understand the importance of culture. But you can't have it both ways by saying "guns don't make us less safe," AND "culture matters," because the latter implies that guns DO make us less safe in the absence of a culture of safety, valuing life, etc.
So what I wish pro-gun people would do is admit simultaneously, (a) yep, guns make us less safe on average, BUT (b) we value the second amendment on a normative level above the deaths caused by gun violence in this country. It would go a long way toward advancing the dialogue and not having stupid threads like this, because nobody wants to argue with the guy who refuses to accept that reality/statistics don't support half his ideas.
Mutant
I hate that supercow !
1. Because criminals already have them and it is impossible to disarm them - that is without inventing a time machine and preventing production and sale of these ~300 millions of firearms US citizens currently have and without inventing an omniscience machine that would detect and see any improvised firearms manufacturing attempts (it is really easy to make a gun).
2. Because the police will only arrive 5-20 minutes after you call 911, or if you can't call 911 - after few days when your neighbors call them because there is that horrible stench of rotting corpses coming from your house.
It is so simple but the antigun people seem to turn off their brains and start thinking with their hearts when the gun topic comes up - there is no way they will ever understand it.
He's Dead, Jim
Member
LeSedna
Mat or Mateo
When I hear my neighbors yell at each other, I'm super happy they are not allowed to have a gun at home.
Pharaoh's Curse
Member
- Nov 11, 2013
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The only thing I would say is the percentage of legal gun owners committing crimes is incredibly low. Illegal gun owners however are an entire different story.
No law has ever prevented someone from doing what they wanted anyways. If someone wants to murder, the law wont stop them but a legal gun owner can.
He's Dead, Jim
Member
Problems with this argument:
1. Most gun-related violence is domestic, not some random crazed criminal. The defense of "good guys with guns stop bad guys with guns" makes no sense in this context.
2. Then how do you explain other countries without guns not having rampant crime? Why don't criminals take advantage of this, get guns, and just go nuts? If the answer is that the U.S. has a culture of violence, aren't guns just another tool that makes this violence worse?
3. If you apply this argument to other spheres of law enforcement, you would basically be saying, "Laws can't stop anybody anyway, so why even have them?"
Again, don't get me wrong- I grew up in an area with a hunting-and-guns culture, and it was perfectly peaceful (although nearly every suicide in the state was the result of a shotgun or handgun, and studies have repeatedly shown that increased access to guns dramatically increases suicide rates because it's such a painless and easy way to commit suicide). I think the second amendment probably means what pro-gun people think it means, up to a point. But that doesn't mean pro-gun folks should create arguments about some strange wild west culture where everybody is armed and a potential law enforcer unto themselves; they should just say, "The constitution says what it says, period."
Because implying that guns don't cause, perpetuate, or facilitate increased gun-related homicide rates is just untrue and doesn't do justice to the actual victims of gun violence. Look at that kid who brought two knives to school and started slashing people. Nobody died, because it wasn't a gun.
Pharaoh's Curse
Member
- Nov 11, 2013
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We should disarm all the cops and military right? If getting rid of all guns solves the issue, why should they have them?
The 2nd amendment was not put in for people to randomly own firearms, it was for protection against tyranny.
Many more factors go into crime statistics than simply not having guns. Japan is a largely homogenized society, something near 98% they have very little crime because of it. Plus, the cops in Japan carry guns.
Take a look at what ethnic groups commit the most crimes in America, the answers are there. This isn't some racial thing I am trying to provoke here, just stating what the studies show on the US crime websites.
*Edit* I always get myself sucked into this stuff. I am here to learn about recording techniques, not discuss crime. This should probably be taken to another forum so I will sign out of any further discussion. I will also say I do understand a lot of the points you make.
SocialNumb
Damn Christians!
Just so you know Pharaoh's Curse. That's what the "Bar" is for. For all off topic discussion and random non-sense.
DullElysium
Member
Here in Finland all we need is a butterknife. We don't give guns just to anybody. I've never even had to consider getting one for my safety. And actually I've never met one finn who has felt the need to get a gun for that reason.
Pharaoh's Curse
Member
- Nov 11, 2013
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Yeah, I know. Just with me most of these topics go round and round and we all have our own opinions. I always try to steer clear of the controversial stuff.
JeffTD
Senhor Testiculo
I think you'll find that socioeconomic factors are far more to blame than ethnicity and race.
Mutant
I hate that supercow !
Well...
I could also say that those who don't understand my 2 points (to which you presented no counter arguments) are friggin idiots living in a wonderland of dreams where it is possible to remotely disintegrate all illegally owned firearms and heroic police officers will always come to their rescue right on time...
But as i said, you will never understand it, so i am wasting my time here.
xFkx
gain induction
Full_Tilt
Member
- Jul 16, 2008
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Theres always going to be statistical variants , different cultures with their different gun policies react differently , trying to justify pros or cons based on these kinds of comparisons is not the best way to look at gun crime in their own country . Its besides the point really ...do people want to reduce gun crime in their own country or not ? I suspect they do but theres too many freedom obsessed people that regard their gun as a simbol of that freedom , Its the same freedom for legal gun owners as it is for people who intend to use it for criminal activity but it really pisses me off that no one wants to take responsibilty for extreme examples of gun crime like school shootings where the majority of victims are not even old enough to vote on gun policy .
People have to take responsible steps sooner or later .
Full_Tilt
Member
- Jul 16, 2008
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Its more about future generations tho isnt it .
If people want to reduce something they normally reduce it sooner rather than later before things are out of control . Some people are so paronoid that they might say its already out of control but I dont think the US is in a total state of Anarchy just yet they're just stuck in their old ways. Its gonna be near impossible to educate every one at once but state by state is another matter .
America doesnt really have a people's person with the balls to put democracy to work and reward those who uphold it .
Your eating out of your governments hand and funding their arm's manufacturers , thats the only reason it gives you the tools to shoot each other .
Mutant
I hate that supercow !
How exactly would you reduce the number of guns circulating on the black market without making good citizens defenseless, forcing hunters to hunt only with a bow ? (which will not pass because of the constitution and some powerful lobbies who would do anything to prevent that) ?
How exactly would you make it impossible to illegally bring in firearms from other countries ?
How exactly would you make it impossible to make a simple gun out of two gas pipes, a cap nut and a nail ?
How exactly would you make it impossible to kill a police officer with that improvised gun, or with a knife, or with a crossbow and then steal his weapon?
That is why i said that it is impossible to disarm criminals, so it must be possible for the good citizen to properly arm himself if he lives in a bad neighborhood or in some very remote place.
A Nobel peace prize for the one who will propose a solution to reducing the number of these 300M guns that would actually work.
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