Getting a good high gain guitar tone with ampsims

[NecroDM]

Hi everyone, after some time lurking on this forum and reading a lot of tutorials i decided to post as i'm having some trouble getting a good tone with my recordings and i hope you can help a n00b out.

I've recorded the guitar, an LTD H-1001 with emg-81/85 through an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra 8r interface and double-tracked it.
Currently the chain i'm using is TSE808->TSE X50->Lecab with catharsis impulses (s-preshigh)->Some eq
Also tried different impulses like guitarhack's and god's cab but it always sounds thin and fizzy, maybe there's something wrong with the DIs i dunno.

You can download the DIs here -> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7773954/Warmageddon.zip

Drums and bass (from midi) also included if you want to play with it.
I'm aware that i should try to fit the guitars in a mix rather than just treat them alone, but i haven't been able to get a good sound that way either.

Can you take a look and help me with this?
Thanks.

 

[Beneath_the_Bliss]

so you're not using a real bass, only midi?

 

[NecroDM]

Unfortunately yes, i haven't had the chance to record a real bass yet.

However i've included an export of the midi to wav using sr5 rock bass in the zip file, i know it's not great but should be usable i hope.

 

[nervirasme]

Hey man,
tone wise you're DIs sound just fine to me, although they're recorded a bit hot and you have some clipping on the louder parts... Anyway, I really don't find them thin sounding, even without bass. I did two reamps - the first one is through LePou's Legion ampsim, and the second one is using a real 6505 head. Both clips use the same GuitarHack's impulse (on both channels). Still can't say they sound thin... how do they sound to you, are you hearing the same problem as with your own reamps?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/41752323/Legion.mp3
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/41752323/6505.mp3

EDIT: Forgot to mention - No postprocessing was done on the clips, though with some EQing you can probably make the tracks sound more aggressive and powerful.

 

[NecroDM]

Hi,
Yeah i noticed some minor clipping on the first riff but it shouldn't affect the tone itself, i can later re-record it if needed.
Your clips sound better than mine, maybe i'm not using the right combination of ampsim/IR?

Here's my version, with GH impluse "Edge-half" -> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7773954/X50.mp3

It sounds "digital", for a lack of a better term, what do you think?
I've also disabled TS808 as it was cutting too much low-end imo.

 

[nervirasme]

Yeah, I get what you mean about your clip, but you'll have to tell me:
- From which set did you get that "Edge-half" impulse, cause there are few sets/folders in GuitarHacks package that contain impulses with same name (but they're different)?
- You should post the settings that you used for the amp sim...

Anyway, I have few suggestions:
- Try using LePou's Legion amp sim, it's the most organic and real-sounding amp sim that I've encountered so far... and the best/most absurd thing about it it's free!
- Also try using "EDGE -1 I Inch ala Sneap pic" impulse from GH's "Single Fredman Style and Sneap Edge" set, because it also sounds quite real and organic (to me at least).

If you're willing we can try to dial in the right tone together and afterwards you can just use the same settings... provided we use the same gear, of course

Cheerz

 

[NecroDM]

Right i forgot that there are several impulses with the same name, sorry about the confusion the one i was using was from "Louder JJ Powertube Impulses Full Set Straight"
I've now tried using Legion with the impulse you mentioned and it does sound better but it's still not there yet.

Here are my settings so far:

Thanks for the help

EDIT: Here's out it sounds: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7773954/legion.mp3

 

[eyes of wrath]

Hey man. Your DI tracks are usable, so don't get discouraged there. I think that editing the tracks to be slightly tighter may help things a little, but as they are they work for sure. I decided to take your tracks and run them through an actual amp setup just so you can hear what they could potentially sound like. I am aware that this doesn't help you with figuring out how to make an amp sim chain work for your mix, but hopefully you will like the sound none the less. You didn't really specify what kind of tone your were aiming for, just that what your were getting was thin and fizzy, so I created a few variations. They are all EVH 5150iii through a mesa 4x12, just with slight tonal adjustments and mic movement. There is no post eq processing on any of these and the drums were just something thrown together very quickly to give the tracks some sort of context. I decided not to use any bass in the mix, just so the focus remains on the guitar. Enjoy!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8648912/eyes of wrath 1.wav

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8648912/eyes of wrath 2.wav

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8648912/eyes of wrath 3.wav

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8648912/eyes of wrath 4.wav

 

[bassguy]

Had a listen to your own example NecroDM, and to be honest I don't think the tone you had was too bad. I agree with eyes of wrath that you should let us know what sort of sound you're going for, because maybe the 5150 tone (which is what x50 is emulating) isn't exactly the sound you were after. Try out each of the lepou plugins and see which one gets you closest to the sound you have "pictured" in your head. Personally I like Lecto, the rectifier model, but from memory I think Lepou's plugs have emulations of a soldano, a diezel, an engl + some others, all are outstanding. Pick the one that emulates the amp you like best in the real world, because these are very good models and chances are it'll sound a lot like the real thing. Also if you like the engl sound try out TSE's x30 plugin, another great free one.

As for the impulse side of things, try some different ones, because not every impulse will sound great with every amp. There's lots in that guitarhack impulse pack, and it wouldn't hurt to go through them all and see which ones you like the sound of best with which amp sims.

Another thing you might be interested to try is match EQ-ing the guitar tone to create an impulse. More info in this thread, I'd watch the first video and find the second video a couple of pages in as well. http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/710368-yt-match-eq-ir-tutorial.html

But basically that will let you create your own impulse from anything you deem to be a great guitar sound, all you need is the right amp head/amp sim set with the right amount of distortion and this will essentially copy all the EQ (the cab sound, mic sound plus any post EQ) and you'll be able to use it as an impulse. The only snag with this method is if you match the guitar tone from something that's already been mixed, you will inherit all the EQ they used in their mix, which may not fit so well into your own mix

 

[thefalloftheheretic]

One thing you could try is to run impulses in series.

Let me explain.
Signal chain-Le456 (or whatever...)->LeCab with ASEM impulse (or whatever...)->EQ, cut some highs, cut some lows, boost mids a bit->LeCab again, this time with my custom Parkway Drive impulse (or whatever...)-> maybe some EQ

The only thing you'd have to look out for here is phase problems between impulses.

 

[StefTD]

why would you run them in series? parallel ok, so one impulse left one right or something, but the way you described it
it would be like running your amp through a cab, mic it, run that sound through another poweramp into another cab and
mic that again...

 

[thefalloftheheretic]

I never said to run it through another poweramp.
Just give it a try. To me, it seems to smooth out the harshness that ampsims seems to generally have.

 

[M-1000]

Check out the metal line from AcmeBarGig: http://www.acmebargig.com/

I prefer them to the Lepou sims.

Nick Crow Labs also has a really good free 5150 sim.

 

[StefTD]

yeah, you didn't say through another poweramp, but an impulse always has the sound of the
poweramp, too because the cabinet has to be powered to send the sinewave throug it

so if you use an ampsim that's not only modelling the preamp and you use an impulse you always
have the sound of two poweramps

The harshness can be tamed by a normal eq, depends a bit on the sim, but low pass and some
cuts around 3k helps alot, I wouldn't use the whole response curve of another cabinet.

 

[NecroDM]

Hi guys, thanks for the replies.

@eyes_of_wrath: Love the tone you got there, my favorites are number 3 and 4, i wish i could get that tone with a 5150/6505 sim!

@bassguy: Thanks for info, i have tried with different ampsims and impulses but so far the "digital" harshness seems to always be there, i've checked that tone matching tutorial, i've been able to get some ok tones but it doesn't sound as good as the original ones.
You're right i forgot about what tone i was thinking of, from what i've heard (live and recordings) i seem to prefer the 6505 although i've heard some good tones from dual rectifiers and powerball.
Anyway here are some tones which i really like (they're different amps though):

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKs1ctp91FI&ob=av3e[/ame]




@M-1000: Thanks for the link, i've heard of AcmeBarGig but i haven't tried the plugins yet, i had tried Nick Crow's 8505 before X50 and i think i got similar results. Also is there a way to run them i'm stereo like x50 and lepou's?

@everyone, i've tried mixing impulses (leCab2 is better for that than the original leCab) but i'm trying to keep it simple since i can't even get one impulse right :\
If i cut too much highs it'll sound like it's in a box, but if i don't it's too harsh maybe i'm not cutting the right freqs?

The weird thing is that i've seem some people with really good tones with the amp sims and impulses i've tried, but for some reason it doesn't sound good with my recordings. Could this be post-eq or something else?

Thanks for the help.

 

[nervirasme]

Based on your screenshot, the only difference that I've made to my own Legion settings is the fact that I crank those mids and lows, and also engage the Tone stack button, which also brings some mids in... Generally, this sim has beautiful mids and I think that they're the ones that carry the potential for a great organic tone. You can still stick the post EQ and shape the final sound, just don't get too extreme with the settings... And personally, I really think that your tone is ok now, just a little bit of tweaking and you're done - and you obviously need to start building a mix around it because you'll get the bigger sonic picture...
Good luck!

 

[bassguy]

Digital harshness on sims is a tough thing to get around, I'm still looking for ways to effectively get around it. I find I do a fair bit of post EQ to my guitars. Definitely do lowpass and highpass, and setting the lowpass filter lower than you'd think would ever sound good generally works well for me. I usually go 8.5k on mine for sims. Also as was mentioned above, do a few narrow cuts around the 3-5k region. A good trick is to put the eq on the most narrow q you can, crank the gain and sweep around and look for anything that sounds particularly bad. Cranking the gain like that will sound bad pretty much everywhere haha, but just try to find the very worst, and then just reverse the gain so you're cutting it out. You might not wanna cut all the way, just find something you like. I also tend to find doing just a small amount of harmonic exciting in the midrange after the EQ can work wonders for adding some life to the tone. Another thing you may want to try for adding some depth to the tone is adding some tape emulation. The two best that I've tried and really really liked for adding some depth and warmth were McDSP's analog channel 2 and the UAD studer plugin. I hate that I can't really afford either right now haha because they're brilliant.

But essentially the main thing I find for sims, and really guitars in general is a fair bit of EQ is required. You'd be surprised how much you can really clean up the tone. Check out this thread for some infinitely useful tips: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...-series-1-poking-holes-high-gain-guitars.html

And I'd love to help more specifically with the tone you're after, but I can never get anything good out of 5150's, it's something I still need to work at. This site can help a bit though for trying some settings that will get you to tones you might know http://www.wolfgangregistry.com/5150-info/5150-amp-settings.html