Gun Master Debate

This assumes that our military would voluntarily march upon its own citizens.

Which is basically what his argument is based upon: that if people do have guns then the government will be too "scared" to oppress them when it becomes a dictatorship, but if people don't have guns then the government will just run riot oppressing them.
 
You do know that the U.S. government has tanks, missile launchers, battleships, stealth bomber jets, attack helicopters, nuclear weapons, and bigger guns than a civillian could ever hope to own, right? If the government truly wanted to impose oppression on the people it wouldn't matter whether people are armed or not: the dinky little guns that some small-minded people get such a kick out of owning and firing would be as laughable and useful as a pink toy gun in that kind of situation. I love a good conspiracy theory when it has decent evidence to support it, but this one is sorely lacking, and in the meanwhile people keep getting killed, maimed, and injured by gun accidents and psycopaths with guns.

The majority of those weapons are useless for occupation, and that argument is quite old, worn and invalid. There is a reason the US has spent trillions on Iraq and Afghanistan with no marked success against "terrorist" organizations and local forces fighting a guerrilla war. You can't shoot what you can't see, whether with an M4 or with an M1 Abrams. Of course, you could nuke everything, but nuking your own country is literal suicide.

I don't know enough about calibers to go into further detail, but a handgun that has sufficient stopping power without being something that can tear someones insides to pieces, a rifle that will be sufficient for what game the person is licensed to hunt?

The "stopping" in stopping power involves tearing someones insides to pieces, unless they have on adequate body armor to prevent penetration. Then you just have broken bones and nasty internal/external bruising.

So lets say someone is going after some small game. "Varmint hunting". You know what the popular caliber is? Something from the .22 family. You know what the military, and probably most common caliber version of the AR-15/M-16 is? From the .22 family. It's a tiny bullet, but more accurate. That's one of the reasons NATO uses the .223/5.56 round is that an infantryman can carry more rounds than 7.76 (the AK standard). Since the rounds are less powerful, accurate shots are stressed over "spray and pray", therefore increasing efficiency from a logistical standpoint.


The issue I've got mostly lies with the fact that many people are 'OH I NEED TO DEFEND MYSELF AGAINST THE BAD GUYS BY KILLING THEM' types. Taking another's life is not something anyone should be willing to do so readily - and it isn't as if these people are rare. It is why I am an advocate of non-lethal self-defense weaponry.

So lets disarm the military then, replace all lethal weaponry with tasers and lasers. Like I said, I'm down with an absolute across the board national disarmament. No one else seems to be though......
 
Obama is trying to take over, and he will not take our guns away because if he does then he will know that he can take away our other rights as well. Obama must be stopped on his quest for the New World Order and his socialist communist domination.
 
Why do you feel this way? Btw, M16's aren't fully automatic rifles, they have semi-auto and three round burst rates of fire.

Because it can be used to kill a lot of people in a few seconds. And yes, I'm well aware of what an M16 is. Achieved expert qualification with it. You and dak need to stop acting like you are the only people that know anything about guns.

No I don't think the crime rate will increase. But what evidence do you have to support your claim that less people will get slaughtered by the insane if a "few minor regulations" get passed?

Not a lot, because its never really been done. But requiring psychiatric evaluations and background checks for any gun purchase would go a long way. As would closing gun show loopholes. Perhaps with new rules, Adam Lanza's parents wouldn't have been allowed to buy that bushmaster, or any gun, in the first place. Changes to the way we approach mental health is the big key, but limiting access to unnecessary guns is an important step too.

Requiring background checks on all gun purchases would also lower gun crime. Yes, criminals would still be able to get guns :rolleyes:, but it'd be a lot more difficult.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776427


While you're working on digging up some evidence to support your claims, here are some actual facts about mass shootings:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund#

I know I posted a Time article, but actual facts from the national review? That's almost as bad as citing a fox news article.

Ultimately I look at it like this: do we want to live in a society where everyone is so scared of each other that they feel the need to arm themselves extensively? Or not?
 
Mathiäs;10529469 said:
Because it can be used to kill a lot of people in a few seconds. And yes, I'm well aware of what an M16 is. Achieved expert qualification with it. You and dak need to stop acting like you are the only people that know anything about guns.

Then you should know better. Or is this the typical military elitist/nasty civlian mindset rearing it's ugly head?

Mathiäs;10529469 said:
Not a lot, because its never really been done. But requiring psychiatric evaluations and background checks for any gun purchase would go a long way. As would closing gun show loopholes. Perhaps with new rules, Adam Lanza's parents wouldn't have been allowed to buy that bushmaster, or any gun, in the first place. Changes to the way we approach mental health is the big key, but limiting access to unnecessary guns is an important step too.

So were Lanza's parents on psychotropic drugs? Given his father's profession, I would think it unlikely. But of course, stigmatizing and profiling those with mental disorders is progressive. Why not just take the next logical step and stigmatize/profile poor urban African Americans? You discredited yourself with "gunshow loophole". There is no such thing. A private party to private party sale of anything can occur anywhere. May as well call it the "Craigslist loophole".

Mathiäs;10529469 said:
Requiring background checks on all gun purchases would also lower gun crime. Yes, criminals would still be able to get guns :rolleyes:, but it'd be a lot more difficult.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/776427

Well of course getting drugs is "more difficult" than if they were sold next to the cigarettes. Hasn't decreased drug usage, it's only empowered cartels et al and driven up crime.


Mathiäs;10529469 said:
Ultimately I look at it like this: do we want to live in a society where everyone is so scared of each other that they feel the need to arm themselves extensively? Or not?

Do we want to live in a society where everyone is so scared of each other they want policemen and a military? The guns aren't going away. Regulation merely shifts the ratios of who has the most. Pro Tip: "NRA nut jobs" aren't a threat to you, no matter how scary the guns look.

Mathiäs;10529473 said:
The fact that this is even brought up is laughable. Why on earth would a scenario like this occur?

Why has it ever occurred in any place it's occurred? Because the military does what it's told to do. "Just following orders".
 
The media doesnt report it, but guns save innocent lives all the time.
Like the mother that hid with her children and a dude came after them. She was forced to empty her revolver (6 shots) into the guy and he still was able to get away.
Right there is the reason for magazines holding 10+ rounds.
What would have happened if there were two or more guys coming after her family and she would have ran out of bullets on the one guy.
She and her innocent kids could have been killed.
It's about protection! Wake up protectionist liberals!

This is actually an important point that should be more directly addressed.

There have been incidents where "innocent" individuals have used firearms to protect themselves. Of course, what we have to admit is that this doesn't contribute in any way, shape, or form to a decrease in gun violence; it's simply violence perpetrated in another direction (one that's popularly lauded as "just" or "righteous").

The media also seems to avoid such incidents, which pro-gunners love to make note of. However, we have to ask an important question: does the media ignore such incidents because there is some active anti-gun proponent of the popular media, or do they ignore these incidents because stories about innocents getting slaughtered sell better?

I'm of the opinion that it's the latter. The media focuses time and time again on stories of innocents being killed by guns because that's what secures the attention of a nation fixated on catastrophe; stories about people protecting themselves simply aren't as lucrative.

Now, there's no doubt that we see plenty of anti-gun biases in faces of the popular media (Piers Morgan, Erin Burnett, Anderson Cooper, Rachel Maddow, etc. etc.); however, this is not so much because there is an anti-gun agenda being perpetrated by the higher-ups or elusive "puppet-masters" (a far too intentional and blame-oriented argument), as it is because stories about children being gunned down in school captivates the nation, secures their attention, and naturally elicits an emotional response. Such stories result in pathos, a rhetorical technique of stirring up emotions.

Assessing the emotional responses is another matter; but it should not be blamed on the media as much as it should be blamed on the viewership. But even this is problematic, since there really is no one to blame among the viewership; if the major consensus of individuals is to call for higher regulation of firearms, it cannot be said that this response has been intentionally or specifically calculated by some ruling class. It's merely the resultant consequence of a complex system of "news" reporting and emotional human individuals responding in large groups.

Certain details and aspects of audience response can be controlled, but really all the media execs have control over is the content of their message. They do not have the ultimate say on what the viewership believes. In this case, "the medium is the message" is more accurate than "the content is the message."

We have no reason to believe that Sandy Hook did not happen; given the infrastructure of our communications apparatuses and the immediacy of access to information, it's nearly impossible that such a story was conjured as a fiction. Still, even if aspects of the story were altered slightly, misrepresented, or misreported, the average viewership responses remains the same in the face of such a tragedy.

In short, all of this suggests there is no conspiratorial anti-gun bias perpetrated by the interior boardrooms of the popular media and communicated to the masses so as to brainwash them. All we can say is that the popular media offers what the popular viewership responds to; catastrophes.
 
So were Lanza's parents on psychotropic drugs? Given his father's profession, I would think it unlikely. But of course, stigmatizing and profiling those with mental disorders is progressive. Why not just take the next logical step and stigmatize/profile poor urban African Americans?

:rolleyes: The point was that schizophrenics, mentally unstable people, etc shouldn't have access to guns. So their caretakers shouldn't be allowed to have them either. Putting more emphasis on funding/treating mental health issues is important as well.

You discredited yourself with "gunshow loophole". There is no such thing. A private party to private party sale of anything can occur anywhere. May as well call it the "Craigslist loophole".

Predictable response. There most certainly is a loophole in most cases. There are 33 states that do not regulate gun shows in any way. How is this not a loophole? Anyone can walk in and buy anything they want, when they probably couldn't do that otherwise.

I also think regulation of private sales wouldn't be a bad idea either, but that might be a stretch.

Well of course getting drugs is "more difficult" than if they were sold next to the cigarettes. Hasn't decreased drug usage, it's only empowered cartels et al and driven up crime.

Drugs and guns are not a comparable issue. I'm for the deregulation of most drugs, if not all of them. As history showed with the deregulation of the financial industry, deregulating isn't always the answer. Certain things need more rules and others need less, or none.

Do we want to live in a society where everyone is so scared of each other they want policemen and a military? The guns aren't going away. Regulation merely shifts the ratios of who has the most. Pro Tip: "NRA nut jobs" aren't a threat to you, no matter how scary the guns look.

...

Why has it ever occurred in any place it's occurred? Because the military does what it's told to do. "Just following orders".

Why would the government order such an action? Don't really understand the fear here.
 
Mathiäs;10529539 said:
:rolleyes: The point was that schizophrenics, mentally unstable people, etc shouldn't have access to guns. So their caretakers shouldn't be allowed to have them either. Putting more emphasis on funding/treating mental health issues is important as well.

By funding you mean stealing from one group of people to give to another right? Maybe we should start stigmatizing psychotropic drugs though.

Mathiäs;10529539 said:
Predictable response. There most certainly is a loophole in most cases. There are 33 states that do not regulate gun shows in any way. How is this not a loophole? Anyone can walk in and buy anything they want, when they probably couldn't do that otherwise.

I also think regulation of private sales wouldn't be a bad idea either, but that might be a stretch.

The licensed dealers who sell at a gunshow instead of their normal place of business have the exact same legal requirements. So while technically you are right, it does not mean what you think it means.


Mathiäs;10529539 said:
Drugs and guns are not a comparable issue. I'm for the deregulation of most drugs, if not all of them. As history showed with the deregulation of the financial industry, deregulating isn't always the answer. Certain things need more rules and others need less, or none.

I'm equivocating prohibition, regardless of what is prohibited. I can't believe you brought up the "financial deregulation" bullshit. The financial industry is about as far from deregulated as anything can get other than Agriculture. Not even remotely comparable. The financial industry is a case in point for corporatism. Private banks with a direct line for better than free money from the Fed/Treasury.

Mathiäs;10529539 said:
Why would the government order such an action? Don't really understand the fear here.


Why has any government ever ordered such an action?
 
The licensed dealers who sell at a gunshow instead of their normal place of business have the exact same legal requirements. So while technically you are right, it does not mean what you think it means.

Oh really? Well how about you explain it then?


I'm equivocating prohibition, regardless of what is prohibited. I can't believe you brought up the "financial deregulation" bullshit. The financial industry is about as far from deregulated as anything can get other than Agriculture. Not even remotely comparable.

Is misunderstanding every point I make part of your debate style? Seriously, no fucking shit that its substantially regulated now. However, the Bush administration de-regulated heavily and it has been similarly deregulated multiple times in the US's history. It is a valid comparison. Also, 'regulation' is a relative term according to the ifield in which it is applied.

Why has any government ever ordered such an action?

:rolleyes: instead of playing the usual 'I know everything' card, why not simply answer a question?
 
This assumes that our military would voluntarily march upon its own citizens.

Obama is trying to take over, and he will not take our guns away because if he does then he will know that he can take away our other rights as well. Obama must be stopped on his quest for the New World Order and his socialist communist domination.

Mathiäs;10529473 said:
The fact that this is even brought up is laughable. Why on earth would a scenario like this occur?

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I'm done responding in this thread, I'll just be reading it. No, I'm not butthurt or anything, I just don't feel like talking about this anymore. Have fun guize.
 
So this is the where you - "Don't act like cunts in here either. If you make a statement support it." But stats and facts are unwelcome?

Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything.
~Homer Simpson

Guns are made for killing people.
My question is - where does it end?
Are everyone in USA now suppose to wear full body armour when stepping outside because of the Second Amendment?
Really?
 
Mathiäs;10529775 said:
Oh really? Well how about you explain it then?

That there isn't a separate regulation for a gun show because the existing regulations for licensed dealers apply regardless? I'm not sure how that was confusing.

Mathiäs;10529775 said:
Is misunderstanding every point I make part of your debate style? Seriously, no fucking shit that its substantially regulated now. However, the Bush administration de-regulated heavily and it has been similarly deregulated multiple times in the US's history. It is a valid comparison. Also, 'regulation' is a relative term according to the ifield in which it is applied.

Aahhh. So here we have no partisan political fingerpointing bullshit. Most people who like to claim it was "deregulation" want to point at the repeal of Glass Steagall. That was Clinton's move (one which he defended as helping mitigate the crisis). Anyway, that's irrelevant, other than to mock your insistence in trying to drag Bush into this conversation. Blame him for 9/11 and/or the horrible policy aftermath, not GS. As long as the Fed exists, any claim of "deregulation" is mock-worthy.

Moving back to prohibition: It doesn't work.

Mathiäs;10529775 said:
:rolleyes: instead of playing the usual 'I know everything' card, why not simply answer a question?

I'm asking you to answer your own question, since as far as I know you completed at least high school and should have had a decent history textbook. In that textbook you've probably read about places like Russia and China and Cambodia and Germany and Turkey and so on. And before you answer that the US isn't those places at those times, I can remind you that neither were they at sometime prior to the events. Situations are fluid, and things can turn bad no matter how much you think it never could.

I don't know everything, and I pointedly stay out of conversations on subjects I know little or nothing about.

But stats and facts are unwelcome?

Haven't seen any from you yet UA.
 
Haven't seen any from you yet UA.

Oh my, we are picking and choosing today, aren't we.

So in your dream USA all people should wear full body armour and if they don't they are just asking for it?
The 2.nd is now in the way of peoples right to "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." So why is it the gun nut USA is the only real true USA?
If more than 50% of americans want the Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness over the 2.nd, then that's the way it is. Welcome to democracy.

And don't call me UA. Speak English if you can.
 
The majority of those weapons are useless for occupation, and that argument is quite old, worn and invalid. There is a reason the US has spent trillions on Iraq and Afghanistan with no marked success against "terrorist" organizations and local forces fighting a guerrilla war. You can't shoot what you can't see, whether with an M4 or with an M1 Abrams. Of course, you could nuke everything, but nuking your own country is literal suicide.

Good God man, can you even see what you're actually writing here? This kinda conspiracy-therory-mongering is right up there with the "faked" moon landing and aliens landing at Roswell. You're actually seriously proposing that people should be allowed to carry guns so that they can wage a succesful guerilla war against the government when it becomes an oppressive dictatorship in the future?

This is highly unlikely and really far-fetched (there are far too many non-gun-related laws and other measures in place to ensure that the U.S. could never lose its democracy and replace it with a dictatorship) , although a great example of how some mindless sheep pursuing an agenda that has been brainwashed into them will say anything to support it. Oh yes, I've come across many other similar people to you who quite readily say anything - no matter how ridiculous or non-logical - to support some great shining ideal that they are prostrating themselves before, whether it be communists in China or religious zealots anywhere in the world. They go around quoting their relevant holy book or political manifesto as if it were absolute truth, utterly disregarding any inconsistencies, errors, or gray areas, and never for a minute allowing themselves to consider that their opinion may have been force-fed or programmed into them, and never bothering to think for themslves with an open mind.

It's much easier to follow a blindly-marching herd like than to try forge your own view of the world - I would know, because I used to be like this too. I don't have any political agenda here at all, I am merely approaching the problem with rational and logical common sense. And if you possess any of these with relation to nature of the human psyche, you would realize the following to be true:

* the sole purpose of guns is to kill people in a split second
* guns can easily escalate drunken brawls to murder
* guns can easily escalate arguments and fist fights into slayings
* guns can easily escalate road rage incidents into slaughter
* guns can easily escalate situation of a child innocently exploring their home into a situation of shooting themselves in the face
* guns can easily escalate a brief momentary lack of care into death/or a lifetime of tragedy
* if there are no guns in a society, people don't need them for protection
* even if you are actually able to defend yourself with a gun (which is far more unlikely than any of the above scenarios) you would still have killed or seriously injured another person, when non-lethal methods would get the job done just as well in most cases.
* the idea of keeping guns in order to wage a guerilla war against the evil government in the future is pathetically and laughably ridiculous.
* the real reason "gun nuts" wanna keep their guns is because they spent thousands of dollars on them and they think they are "real men" who are "so cool/macho/powerful/etc" if they have a good-looking gun. They just use N.R.A. propoganda as a convenient crutch for their ego-stroking yet deadly hobby.

To be honest, I would have thought metalheads in general would be more of an open-minded kind (read "people who aren't brainwashed into mindless minions of illogical political manifestos") due largely to the very nature of metal, and I find it quite surprising that we've had not one but several people here parroting N.R.A. political propoganda as if they seriously believe it to be absolute truth.
 
*snip tired arguments, personal attacks, incoherent rambling*

Pointing out the limitations of "modern military tech" in guerrilla warfare = "conspiracy theory mongering". :Spin:

This "OMG IF EVERYONE HAS GUNS WE'LL ALL DIE" is about as brainwashed and absurd as rhetoric can get. I remember this same sort of paranoia being blathered about in Arizona right before they made it legal to conceal carry into establishments that serve alcohol. All predictions from the gun-banning-zealots were that the new law would usher in a Neo-Wild-West, where drunken shootouts would erupt across the state. Needless to say, these fears have been unsubstantiated.

Oh my, we are picking and choosing today, aren't we.

So in your dream USA all people should wear full body armour and if they don't they are just asking for it?
The 2.nd is now in the way of peoples right to "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." So why is it the gun nut USA is the only real true USA?
If more than 50% of americans want the Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness over the 2.nd, then that's the way it is. Welcome to democracy.

And don't call me UA. Speak English if you can.

Body armor is illegal. What's your point UA?
 
This is highly unlikely and really far-fetched (there are far too many non-gun-related laws and other measures in place to ensure that the U.S. could never lose its democracy and replace it with a dictatorship)

Such as the protection against unlawful search and seizure, habeus corpus, and due process? Tell that to the Patriot Act, the recently passed information security legislation, Bradley Manning, the hundreds of innocent Pakistanis slayed by American drone warfare, and the countless other examples of government intrusion on civil liberties. Something tells me that you're not very well read on neither the past or present. And please stop underlining every other word, it doesn't give your ignorant rant the extra "substance" that you're intending.
 
*Very brief (and tellingly-so) mindless blathering of a brainwashed minion who worships the N.R.A. manifesto as the Bible*

I'll accept your refusal to address basically all of the very relevant and pertinent issues that I raised here as a sign that you have finally run out of mindless propoganda to spew out, and of course that's what these sheep-like sycophants who blindly follow flawed human manifestos tend to do: once you back them into a corner with solid reasoning and logic, they very rapidly stick their heads into the sand in denial (this topic is a great example of that). The truth can be a very bitter pill to swallow, and many prefer to be ignorant and mind-controlled instead. Enjoy the ostrich act over there, though it must be hard with sand all up in your eyes, mouth, and ears. :lol:
 
Such as the protection against unlawful search and seizure, habeus corpus, and due process? Tell that to the Patriot Act, the recently passed information security legislation, Bradley Manning, the hundreds of innocent Pakistanis slayed by American drone warfare, and the countless other examples of government intrusion on civil liberties. Something tells me that you're not very well read on neither the past or present. And please stop underlining every other word, it doesn't give your ignorant rant the extra "substance" that you're intending.

I'm in no denial or ignorance as to the indiscretions of governments around the world, but let me just ask you this: are you actually suggesting that the main reason people should be allowed to carry guns is so that they can resist the U.S. government in some future guerilla war? "Yes" or "no" will do just fine, I just need to know so I can decide whether I can file you under "people who believe in ridiculous conspiracy theories and paranoid fear-mongering" or not.
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