Heir Apparent and musical terminology question

[Dante's Inferno]

Okay, so I am currently learning Heir Apparent on guitar based on the powertab found on Ultimate Guitar, where suddenly one thing confused me.

          [B][I]|----5:3----|[/I][/B]
   E   S  S  S  S  S  S  S  S  S  E  S    S   S  S  S  S  E.  S  S  S  S
|--------------------------------------|-----------------------------------||
|-12-----11-12-11----------------------|----------------------------------o||
|-----13----------13-12----12----12----|-----------15-16-16--16-13-13-13---||
|-----------------------14----14----14-|-13--14-14-------------------------||
|--------------------------------------|-----------13-14-14--14-11-11-11--o||
|--------------------------------------|-------------------------0--0--0---||

That thing in bold and italic (5:3), what does it mean? I'm trying to listen to the song while looking at the tab, but I see no logic.

 

[BefriendedUnit]

Five triplets? Maybe it was at 5:30 in the song and it's a typo? Not sure, really.

 

[Dante's Inferno]

No, it's not a typo, I'm pretty sure of that. I've seen it before in tabs, it's some sort of odd rhythmic grouping (like triplets, only a bit more advanced, I think).

 

[Luann]

if it's a polyrythm, it means 5 notes in the place of 3.
It's funny when people write this kind of things in a tab, it's like trying to draw something, and then you write over it a complex phrase since the drawing can't express that.
Shitty example.
I don't see the point of writing that rhythm on the tab....

edit: there are 5 notes in that fragment, so maybe it is 5 notes, but this is weird.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

It means that five notes are played in the time it normally takes to play three sixteenth-notes. If the wording is confusing, imagine it like this:

E S S S S S S S S S E S

The first eighth note (E) and the first sixteenth note (S) take up the first 1/4th of the measure (which is 6/8). The next five S notes are the second 1/4th, the next three S notes are the third 1/4th, and the last E and S notes complete the measure. Basically, you're pushing five notes into a space where there should normally only be three sixteenth notes.

E S / S S S S S / S S S / E S

 

[Dante's Inferno]

That's what I thought. Well, feared would be a better word. Any tips on how to learn that? I guess I should just practise practise practise.

Okay, thanks guys.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

It's a difficult thing to get a "feel" for; it's very mathematical. I say just play the five notes really fast to squeeze them in that time. Make the 11-12-11 a hammer-on pull-off deal if you want; the notes are played fast enough that it won't make a difference.

 

[Arjen W.]

Isn't it just called a quintuplet? It's the same idea as a triplet, but with five notes, as far as I know (I don't know shit about music theory). Heh, I was having a bit of trouble with that little run too. Just start out at a slow tempo.

 

[Dante's Inferno]

Quintuplet sounds right, yes. At least now I have some clue of what is going on.

 

[Luann]

Listen to the song rather thank thinking "ok i'm gonna put that 5 notes"

 

[Dante's Inferno]

Nothing wrong with understanding what you are doing. A car mechanic might not need training to do what he does, but it doesn't hurt. I tried listening, but couldn't make it out.

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Isn't it just called a quintuplet?

Yep, that's it. I forgot the prefix... I was going to call it a "pentatuplet!"

 

[dwoakee]

That's what I thought. Well, feared would be a better word. Any tips on how to learn that?

You can try the following. First, try to get used to the feeling of five beats in one measure of time by hitting five beats with your right hand while hitting only one beat with the left:

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
L    L    L

Do this at a very slow speed at first!

Now, do the same thing with two, three, four, five, six beats in the right hand, while maintaining the same speed in the left hand. Try to switch between the numbers of beats in the right hand while continuing at the same slow pace in the left hand.

Now, change hands.

Now, try triplets: hit two beats with one hand in the same time as three beats in the other. then, hit four beats agains three.

Now, try five against three.

Last, increase speed.

 

[GhostUnholy]

This type of notation I've only seen in power tab. I think what *should* be there is a quintuplet i.e. 5 notes in the space of a beat, not 5 in the space of 3 16ths.... I think. I would have to listen to the specific part to be sure.

I always had trouble learning these groupings when I tried to count them with numbers but what helped me was a little crash course in the karnatic system of rhythm from southern india, maybe google it. It lets you figure out how to feel out the rhythms the way you can the ordinary groupings like 16ths and triplets and so on.

 

[Annihilat0r]

11-12-11 should be hammer on and pull off, there's no reason to pick all of those notes; plus I think Mike does a H/O and P/O there as well.

 

[Dante's Inferno]

Eh, I'm so lazy. Still haven't learned the part, can't be arsed to sit down and just do it slow. Know the rest of the song though (except both solos).

It's so much more fun to know how to play songs than the actual learning process. I know it's kinda vital, but I always found it pretty dull. At least up until the point where I can play it.

 

[Annihilat0r]

It's probably something like that, although it might not be totally accurate, it sounds pretty much like this: http://rapidshare.com/files/133449772/Chapter_31.mpg.html

 

[Dante's Inferno]

Annihilat0r: thanks! That's very helpful.

 

[Reelo]

Isn't it just called a quintuplet?

It is, in fact, not a quintuplet.
A Quintuplet would be something else.

A triplet is 3 in the space of 2
A quintuplet is 5 in the space of 2
This 5:3 is 5 in the space of 3.
If it had been a regular quintuplet, the :3 would have been unnecessary.

These kind of things (I remember, Dream Theater also has stuff like a 10:7 run in one solo) is hard to get a grasp of. Basically, you just play outside the rhythm of the beat and need to just "feel" when it's right. And indeed, it is right when it feels odd BECAUSE it's outside the beat.

I guess...

 

[Detective Clarence Beauregard]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Symphony X has some crazy ratios of notes in some of their solos, too. I know that there's a strange pattern in Serenity Painted Death, too (the first "lead" in the song, I think it's over 5/8 timing). It's just usually so fast that playing it 100% accurately isn't going to make much of a difference to the listener.