How Machiavellian is Bush?

[Norsemaiden]

Many politicians and leaders such as Napoleon, Louis XIV and Mussolini have read and been impressed by "The Prince" by Niccolo Machiavelli.

The fact that this book has been a huge influence on politicians for nearly half a millenium, makes it especially clear why politicians are reknowned for being unprincipled liars and manipulators.

Machiavellli's main contribution to political thought is the insistence that theological and moral values are incompatible with effective politics. Politics is about maintaining power and stability, not about bringing about a nicer society in Machiavellian thought. The recurrant theme is that the ends justify the means.

Is the present "neoconservative" administration in the US particularly strongly influenced by Machiavelli? One of the founding fathers of the neocon movement is the philosopher Leo Strauss, who wrote "Thoughts on Machiavelli", a well researched and controversial piece of Machiavelli scholarship. It is not clear whether Strauss' critique is actually unfavourable or not towards the advice in "The Prince". Strauss describes it as being "wicked", and yet also describes it as being "wholesome" according to the editorial review.

This site may be of interest regarding Strauss and the neocons:
http://www.thefourreasons.org/leostrauss.htm

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince
Here are some aspects of "The Prince" that may be relevant to a consideration of how Machiavellian Bush is.

It is imperative that the Prince be willing to do anything necessary to maintain power; however, Machiavelli asserts strongly that above all, the Prince must not be hated. He also stresses that for a prince, being feared by the populace is better than being loved by them

an understanding that apparent cruelties and vice may be essential to maintaining stability and power

making efforts to appear religious to sway the "vulgar."

The prince should endeavor to be seen as compassionate, trustworthy, sympathetic, honest, and religious.

but really none of these things are more than superficial

History shows that leaders who practiced deceit almost always overcame those that lived by their word. Therefore, in accordance a prudent prince must not honor his word when it places him at disadvantage

(I read "The Prince" a long time ago, and it was easiest to just copy a few quotes from Wikepedia - sorry if that seems lazy).

 

[Frank the tank]

hey norsemaiden look, Americans are a bunch of assholes, and we simply don't care. and usually when we have an election, the leaders always turn out to be assholes too, so we have to decide between the lesser of two evils. of course bush lies and most people hate him, and he seems to cover up his aggressive actions with reasons that are either religous or a " the ends justify the means" kind of attitude. and in all of our political coomercials it's either some pussy or some asshole simply being condescending towards the other candidate, and taking advantage of american voters ignorance and vulnerablities, the ones who think that this next president will be our savior. personally i think most of the poloticians in this country insult the rest of the populations intelligence with their garbage to the people who understsand polotics. but thats the way it works here. rest assured, i love this country. god bless america.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Do you mean that you can't get any better leaders because all Americans are assholes?

That isn't true, I know some Americans on this board who would make much better leaders than the ones you have to choose from.

The thing is though, the crowd would rather vote for an asshole because they fear their superiors.

There is something in "The Prince" (I'll find it later) relevant to that last point. Something about cynically putting an idiot up to be the (puppet) leader. Alternatively Bush could be pretending to be a fool. All so that people are happier to vote for him.

 

[fah-q]

I find it amusing that even the British are so upset with Bush they are finding psuedo-intellectual ways of critcizing him. :Smug:

 

[speed]

I find it amusing that even the British are so upset with Bush they are finding psuedo-intellectual ways of critcizing him. :Smug:

I think its a reasonable argument.

 

[Norsemaiden]

Really I wouldn't limit the accusation of Machiavellian behaviour to the neo cons. It is typical of politics in general. "The Prince" was reputedly the favourite book of the 1970s British Conservative leader Margaret Thatcher. She probably owed a lot of her success to it.

 

[speed]

Really I wouldn't limit the accusation of Machiavellian behaviour to the neo cons. It is typical of politics in general. "The Prince" was reputedly the favourite book of the 1970s British Conservative leader Margaret Thatcher. She probably owed a lot of her success to it.

I think most if not all political leaders have used Machiavellian tactics to some extent. And they suffer if they do not.

Interestingly enough, he was the greatest dramatic prose comedian of the Italian Renaissance. This fact is sometimes lost. Really, his comedies were performed for centuries, and Im surprised they still arent. I really should read a few of them.

 

[Frank the tank]

quote: originally from Norsemaiden
Do you mean that you can't get any better leaders because all Americans are assholes?



prettimuch, yeah. least all the poloticians

 

[SoundMaster]

Alternatively Bush could be pretending to be a fool. All so that people are happier to vote for him.

I don't think that's likely.
He's either really possesses the intellect he displays or he's an idiot-savant, that's hundreds of times more intelligent than he appears.

His Republican nomination to run for the president in 200 was for two reasons:
1) family name/pedigree
2) (most importantly) to mobilize the radical religous right (or reich) who, to that point, had generally refrained from politics (rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's)

 

[fah-q]

I don't think that's likely.
He's either really possesses the intellect he displays or he's an idiot-savant, that's hundreds of times more intelligent than he appears.

His Republican nomination to run for the president in 200 was for two reasons:
1) family name/pedigree
2) (most importantly) to mobilize the radical religous right (or reich) who, to that point, had generally refrained from politics (rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's)

Yes, a Harvard grad who the unhappy have labeled a dolt. I would expect a less judgemental approach from those who fancy themselves intellectuals. I concede that he does not speak well publicly. That only tells me he needs to go to toastmasters.
Have a nice day.

 

[SoundMaster]

Yes, a Harvard grad who the unhappy have labeled a dolt. I would expect a less judgemental approach from those who fancy themselves intellectuals. I concede that he does not speak well publicly. That only tells me he needs to go to toastmasters.
Have a nice day.

Yes, of course. You're 100% correct. No way people get into Ivy League schools and graduate without the help of "donations". That's never happened. LOL

"They misunderestimated me".
GWB

 

[speed]

Yes, of course. You're 100% correct. No way people get into Ivy League schools and graduate without the help of "donations". That's never happened. LOL

"They misunderestimated me".
GWB

I misunderestimated how bad he would be.

 

[fah-q]

Yes, of course. You're 100% correct. No way people get into Ivy League schools and graduate without the help of "donations". That's never happened. LOL

"They misunderestimated me".
GWB

Give me a break. If he were buying his grades, don't you think he would have bought better ones? I sure would have.

 

[derek]

The man is a bit of a fool, you can hardly deny that. His obvious family connections and the arrogant fact that he knows how powerful the family are are pretty evident in any footage I've ever seen of him.

He is orchestrating a botched job, underpinned by the fact he has most Americans scared into support.

 

[Frank the tank]

i don't know about the rest of my fellow americans. but the american people didnt elect a president so that he could fix someone elses problems, especially while wasting our tax dollars onit , which eh could be using to fix this country, which he's hardly doing. fuck bush, we had enough people we could kill off in this country before we go somewhere else to do it. now we are in debt crazy style and all because he wanted to fulfill daddy bush's wishes. actions speak louder than words , and bush can hardly talk. obviously he doesn't know what he's doing. if he believed in a war so goddam much ,he should have put in his own kids before sending thousands of other american families kids there. theyre like 21 right now right?

 

[SoundMaster]

Give me a break. If he were buying his grades, don't you think he would have bought better ones? I sure would have.

Face reality of the situation: the man possesses avg intelligence, at best.

 

[derek]

Intelligence is not necessarily a predicate for being in office. I'd settle for a man (or woman) of honesty, integrity, a reasonable sense of right and wrong and with an open minded and sensitive disposition - I don't need a genius.

 

[Frank the tank]

i would hope so. but it wouldnt surprise me if he didnt. i heard he couldnt spell or write an essay or speech and other people have to write his stuff. he's also said alot of dumb things i've seen in videos. plus he used to snort coke, drink alcohol and smoke pot for years on a daily basis , and this is the only job he's ever kept in his life. he 'found jesus' like all the other alcoholics and then decided that god wanted him to be president. i think he could do better.

 

[speed]

Give me a break. If he were buying his grades, don't you think he would have bought better ones? I sure would have.

Kerry, Gore, Bush and Im sure innumerable famous others didnt do well at Harvard--with the same C average. But frankly, all of these men were let into Harvard because of their family lineage--and fah-q, you;re an absolute fool to if you think any one of these guys got in due to their academic prowess and intelligence. This is how America preserves its aristocracy if we have one. And back then they didnt give A's to everyone. Its clear all of these three that Ive mentioned, were not particularly bright as compared to their classmates.

But does that even matter? Do grades matter? Countless geniuses, scientists, renowned creative spirits and world leaders did poorly in college. Im frankly tired of hearing it. I'll judge them on how they've done in life. Bush was elected president (not easy to do, but he did have family help), but its obvious he is not a searcher, but a believer; its obvious he is not well-read, or even knowlegable of much of anything; its obvious he places blind trust in his friends; its obvious he's not very articulate, and dare i say, totally oblivious to the rules of basic english and rhetoric; however, he does have charisma, which seems to be disappearing lately.

 

[SoundMaster]

Kerry, Gore, Bush and Im sure innumerable famous others didnt do well at Harvard--with the same C average. But frankly, all of these men were let into Harvard because of their family lineage--and fah-q, you;re an absolute fool to if you think any one of these guys got in due to their academic prowess and intelligence. This is how America preserves its aristocracy if we have one. And back then they didnt give A's to everyone. Its clear all of these three that Ive mentioned, were not particularly bright as compared to their classmates.

But does that even matter? Do grades matter? Countless geniuses, scientists, renowned creative spirits and world leaders did poorly in college. Im frankly tired of hearing it. I'll judge them on how they've done in life. Bush was elected president (not easy to do, but he did have family help), but its obvious he is not a searcher, but a believer; its obvious he is not well-read, or even knowlegable of much of anything; its obvious he places blind trust in his friends; its obvious he's not very articulate, and dare i say, totally oblivious to the rules of basic english and rhetoric; however, he does have charisma, which seems to be disappearing lately.

Most of this is spot-on.
**With one exception: he was appointed president (the 1st time) by the Supreme Court. Yes, "democracy" indeed.