I can't hear the low frequencies

[Axonic Rot]

I am having trouble with low frequencies. The monitors that I am using are leaving feeling blind. What sounds great on them will have completely exaggerated low frequencies in my car(my car does well into the 30's) compared to recordings that I use as a reference. I can go back and compensate until the really low frequencies are in the right place, but I really need to do detailed work and not just set the level of the frequencies.

The references I use are Beneath the Massacre's Dystopia and Ion Dissonance's Minus the Herd(I know, but damn if it isn't one of the most amazing sounding albums I've ever heard)

The most obvious solution to the problem is getting a reference sub. I have been looking at some more affordable ones and the entry level JBL is looking the best. I don't have enough money for even that right now thanks to different things happening, but if that is what I have to do i can make it happen at any cost.

I have an album to deliver some time in the near future and I would like to get this issue in order. My clients can't tell the difference between me compensating and making the level comparable to other records and actually fixing the issues I have with the sound, but I can't live with something not living up to my expectations.

I have some ATm40fs headphones that reproduce the frequencies that I need to work on, but the level of those frequencies is way down there in modern recordings because of the loudness everyone is going for. When I play a sine wave that sweeps from 10 and goes on up it's extremely loud starting in the late 20's on my cans. But when listening to reference material or mixing those frequencies are gone even though they're actually there in spades in my car. It's almost like I need a super hyped low end to get the job done.

What are the guys that have everything perfect using?

Is it possible to get a slightly higher end set of cans like the AThm50 and hear what is going on down there? Some people who review those headphones say they offer a similar sound compared to a pair of monitors and a sub, I find that a little difficult to believe. That would be a magnificent break for me if I could spend that small amount of money and solve my problem.

Any help from the knowledgeable is much appreciated. I feel like this issue is nearly the final frontier before I can be satisfied with my recordings as a listener.

Thanks
-andii

 

[Seth Munson]

What monitors are you using and is your room treated?

I would not recommend mixing with cans on

 

[colonel kurtz]

The most obvious solution to the problem is

...proper room treatment and monitor positioning

i see a lot of talk in your post about monitors/subs/phones, but no mention of bass traps, diffusion, absorptive/reflective surfaces, etc.

 

[Axonic Rot]

What monitors are you using and is your room treated?

I would not recommend mixing with cans on

Thanks for replying.

It's a large rectangular untreated room with a lot of stuff in it. I am in the far end of the room against the wall with the whole thing behind me. I listen at fairly low levels. The monitors are really close in an equilateral formation. The monitors are KRK rockit 8s. The manufacturer doesn't even claim them to produce anywhere near the frequencies I need to hear.

 

[colonel kurtz]

a)how close is "really close"? ideally, you want your head the same distance from the speakers as they are from each other...prob. at least 3 ft.

and i can guarantee that a lot of your problem stems from not having any bass trapping. mixing below 40hz is always a bitch, but if you add a sub with no bass traps, you're just going to exaggerate the peaks and nulls in the low end and end up where you are now, but with less $$ in your pocket.

 

[Axonic Rot]

a)how close is "really close"? ideally, you want your head the same distance from the speakers as they are from each other...prob. at least 3 ft.

and i can guarantee that a lot of your problem stems from not having any bass trapping. mixing below 40hz is always a bitch, but if you add a sub with no bass traps, you're just going to exaggerate the peaks and nulls in the low end and end up where you are now, but with less $$ in your pocket.

My head and the monitors form an equilateral triangle with 3 foot sides.

I would appreciate acoustic treatment recommendations. I would like to learn of some alternatives to the really marked up auralex products I'm looking at.

 

[colonel kurtz]

fuck auralex

you need bass traps, my find...google that shit, or even search this forum, and there's much info to be had!

 

[Klosure]

Have you checked your mix on small speakers? Can you still hear the bass?

I ask because I spent a long time thinking that the stuff I was trying to get was down there, but trickery made the bass actually sit nearer 150hz.

Most mixes are made to play well on small speakers, after all the pros almost always have NS-10s or similar to figure this out on.

 

[timislegend]

what interface are you using? how many outputs are available?

we have a lobby in our studio... and one of our studio maintenance techs routed two outputs from pro tools to a bang and olufsen hifi system in the lobby.

i guess, what i am recommending is: set up a hifi system in another room with NO TREATMENT and route two outputs to that system.

this will allow you to translate your mix in a casual environment that may contain typical mixing disparities.


i do also recommend treating the room you mix in (like everyone is saying)... and quite possibly invest in an LFE of some sort (adam/yamaha/genelec/dynaudio).

 

[egan.]

I agree that accuracy is very often a treatment issue and bass issues below 200Hz are always huge especially in smaller rooms. That said -- and I know some folks will disagree-- there just aren't many guys mixing on monitors that are doing much below 50Hz and I honestly doubt your car is doing 30 (certainly not with any degree of accuracy). Frankly, I'm willing to bet your issues are a lot higher than you think they are, and there's a good chance you are sitting in a giant null point since your room is untreated.
I've never personally experienced a subwoofer system that sounded right to me. No doubt they exist, but they are a real bear to get set correctly without really designing the room around them.
So anyway, my recommendation would be treatment first, better nearfields second, and cross referencing on phones no matter what else you do until you have a setup you can trust.

 

[Omega_Void]

I would not recommend mixing with cans on

Definitely cans are not good for general mixing, but are useful for specific tasks.

You could try AB-ing with a good commercial mix to check your low end. Route both mixes through the same eq. First shelf off the low end, and balance the RMS levels between both mixes. Then put the low end back in and use the high shelf to remove everything but the low end. Compare your levels to the commercial mix levels. You can do this visually with RMS and peak meters, but comparing the low-end alone on cans will give you a better picture of what's going on down there without room problems impinging.

I once heard a rough mix done on those little Roland speakers which use fake low end to compensate for the tiny speaker size, and AB-ing like this the average level above ~200Hz was 12dB down from the commercial mix, but the low-end was about 6dB higher! The guy who did the mix seemed to think I was exaggerating the fact that this was a problem.

Note that this is a workaround, not proposed as a substitute for room treatment and sub.

 

[mephisto_loh]

Man the 80% of the mixing problems are due the modes of the room. The only think you have to do is to find a good place where to places your monitors.
Maybe you are sitting in a node so that's why you can't hear the low frecs. One exercise you can do is to put some low frec sinewaves samples through your monitors. Start from 60Hz in steps of 20 or 50hz till reach the 350Hz and with each frec move around your room you will clearly find the nodes and the summ points (where there is cancellation or the sine waves are summed). A hint is that always in the corners of the room or near the walls you will hear the low frecs. Try in all the sinewave samples to check at the place where you sit to mix. You will notice something.
The next step is to search in the net for the program named "room optimizer" or buy it. That program helps you to find the best place for your monitors in certain room (the inputs of the program are the XYZ of your room and a range of where you would like to put the monitors). The result is a frec response graph with the position your monitors should be.
About the bass traps, diffusion and stuff. they doesn't help much if you don't first have deal with the room Modes. Another thing that the books and the room treatment companies does not tell you is: "you will never get rid of the room modes and the standing waves, all the products they offer is to minimize the effect" so if you are not a pro, before spend in all that treatment stuff, try to place your monitors and you the best you can.
that will solve most of the problems.
Sorry for the bad English but i hope this might help you all.
Any questions please feel free to ask

Edit. even if you are a pro the first step for a room treatment is the room mode analysis

 

[Axonic Rot]

Thanks to everyone.

After spending some more time observing the issues I'm having I've found all of the roots of the problem.

The monitors I have begin dropping off very high. That problem mixed with the room not being treated leaves me with nothing I can trust to get any job done. If the monitors I have were put into a treated room they would still not be 100% ideal but perhaps workable or something closer to it.

What I'm doing currently is ordering ATH m50 headphones for no other purpose except monitoring the low frequencies that my monitors won't reproduce under any conditions (and avoiding the room's shortcomings while doing it). From there it's on to what really needs to be done, which is treating a medium sized room in my house and maybe later on getting a a sub to fill out the roll off and drop out of my monitors. I'm excited about the thought of having a great room and getting great consistent results.


Thanks to everyone who replied. I never anticipated so many responses.