I need your help for an overhead tutorial

[The-Zeronaut]

I created this thread with the intention of trying to make my overhead sound better and , of course , to help everyone else.
For me this is the most difficult part of recording drums...(maybe because i replace everything else with samples )
im gonna post here some videos and photos about overhead placing
and it would be great if you share your techniques and post photos and/or videos too.
if everything goes as expected i will summarize all your posts into a tutorial for the Sneap Forum Tutorial Thread
(If ahjteam is ok with that)

OVERHEAD TUTORIAL

General tips/rules

Use condenser mics (usually small diaphragm condensers)
Do a high pass filter in the 400-600hz area
Both mics should be at the same highness

3:1 RULE (only for the Spaced pair)
Separate the mics by at least 3 times the mic-to-source distance.
Example: if mic 1 is 20 cm away of the cymbals, the mic 2 should be 60 cm away from the mic 1

Mic placements


XY

Microphones in a XY pattern creating a 90 degrees angle

height: 5 feet (152 cm) or so

photos
http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/453972/1/XY?h=289d69


Videos




ORTF

Microphones should have between their capsules 17 cm creating a 110 degrees angle.

height: 5 feet (152 cm) or so

Photos
http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/453972/1/ORTF?h=6ae160

Videos


NOS
Microphones should have between their capsules 30 cm creating a 90 degrees angle.

height: 5 feet (152 cm) or so

Photos
http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/453972/1/Nos?h=b85793

Videos


SPACED PAIR

Normally you aim for the snare in the center of the image but for what i understand if you are gonna replace with samples
and do a 600hz hpf on the overheads you dont "have" to do that

Andy says he aims for the edge of the cymbals

Height : Something like 1,5 to 2,5 feet (45-75 cm) from the cymbals

photos

http://www.getdropbox.com/gallery/453972/1/Spaced pair?h=0d5f4e


Videos








Please correct me if im wrong and post your techniques , tips , advices...

Cheers,

Mark

 

[gabriel g.]

smaller mic distance, bigger stereo image.
I know the 3:1 rule but what about this: http://www.musix.ch/im/img112056-208829.jpg

 

[Trep]

This is an awesome Idea.....

I think Overheads are harrrrrrd lol

 

[egan.]

Rule #1 ignore the 3:1 rule. For one b/c the scenario you've described is completely impossible to achieve for all parts of the kit simultaneously and secondly it's far more logical to listen and check for mono comparability. It's also true that anything near-coincident (ORTF for example) directly violates the 3:1 rule for nearly every piece. If there is any measuring to do I would make sure the mics were equidistant from the snare.

 

[ze kink]

This is cool too: http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/glynjohns.htm

I've used it a couple times and it's pretty nice for a more traditional vibe.

Overheads are really difficult for me too, I still haven't managed anything I'd honestly be satisfied with, I always end up with something sounding like shit.

 

[gabriel g.]

1.roll off at 400-600hz in the overhead stereo-track!!!
2.Small condenser mics
3.Not more then 1m between the mics
4.Both mics at the same highness
5.Both mics should have the same level in the mixer
6.GOOD CYMBALS

 

[The-Zeronaut]

1.roll off at 400-600hz in the overhead stereo-track!!!
2.Small condenser mics
3.Not more then 1m between the mics
4.Both mics at the same highness
5.Both mics should have the same level in the mixer
6.GOOD CYMBALS

thats what i always do.
what fucks up my mind is "the two mics should be at an equal distant from the snare" :S

seriously i tried it many times and i never get it right :S
one of the mics is always in a fuckup position
im starting to thing that im retarded...

 

[gabriel g.]

Just put them in the air, pointing straight on the cymbals

 

[Melodeath]

It's also true that anything near-coincident (ORTF for example) directly violates the 3:1 rule for nearly every piece.

True. It's not as mono compatible as X/Y, but definitely more than a spaced pair, especially since you're using cardioids, aimed in different directions.

 

[Ermz]

It depends what sound you're going for. There isn't really a 'be-all' overhead technique or set of mics that work better than any others.

I see a lot of people mentioning only using SDCs. You guys realize that this is more or less a metal-specific preference, right? For more natural, acoustic genres you want something to capture the entire spectrum because you won't be high-passing the overheads as drastically as 600hz. Even in rock music some opt to use the OHs for the majority of the tone, only bringing in the close mics to augment what they capture.

I use an approach very similar to what Andy outlined years ago. Spaced pair, mics aiming out at the outer edges of cymbals, attempting to mic the cymbals in pairs. Here's a few pics to show:

Sound clip resulting from the first picture: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/285689/possessing-drumbass.mp3

Sound clip resulting from the second picture: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/285689/Music/Supersonic-MyMachine.mp3

 

[Melodeath]

Ermz,

Good point. LDCs are very popular in other genres. I've heard they "capture the overall sound better," though I don't understand the technicalities of it. Are LDCs generally flatter at lower frequencies? I was always udner the impression that SDCs are flatter, but have more self-noise.

Also, are those spaced pairs cardioids?

 

[Ermz]

Yeah, they're cheap NT5s. Those are the more budget-oriented sessions I've done. They're not really the best mics because they have an inherent 'thinness' to them and make the cymbals sound sort of light and airy, instead of crunchy or sparkly. As far as favourites for this genre go I'd have to throw my vote in for Mercenary Audio KM69s.

SDCs are generally flatter to my knowledge. It's not necessarily about flatness in this game though is it? We want excitement in our audio.. in particular harmonically rich sources like cymbals. I'll have to see how I go tomorrow. I'll be tracking a kit with 2 calibration-quality microphones that are apparently stupidly flat. Hoping that somehow lends itself to good metal overheads.

I'm not really one for tracking OHs with LDCs because the stuff I do generally doesn't demand it, but I'd certainly try it out if I were working on an acoustic or jazz act where you want the overheads to be more than just cymbal mics.

 

[gabriel g.]

a small stereo bridge works great sometime!!!
But I usualy track Oh like Ermz.

When I played around with my self made E-drum ( I know, I will post pictures...) I put the stereo bridge on a mic-stand and put 2 Opus 53 on it. 2,5 m in the air pointing straight on the cymbal-center.
It worked great!!!Very hugh stereo-image.

I think I´ll do this on the next production too. But I´ll but to condensers in the air with a bigger distance to each other pointing more on the hats and ride.
Like AKG c1000 (with a little darker character)

 

[The-Zeronaut]

Ermz in these examples you were aiming for having the snare in the center of the image?

Can somebody PLEASE answer me this question...??

If am gonna replace the drums with samples and make a 600hz HPF in the OHs is strictly necessary
to have the snare in the center of the image?


P.S: i was aiming to make a "metal oriented" overhead tutorial
of course if you record an acoustic pop or jazz band many things would be different

 

[egan.]

True. It's not as mono compatible as X/Y, but definitely more than a spaced pair, especially since you're using cardioids, aimed in different directions.

Oh absolutely, my point was just about how totally silly and impractical the 3:1 rule ends up being.

 

[Melodeath]

Ermz in these examples you were aiming for having the snare in the center of the image?

Can somebody PLEASE answer me this question...??

If am gonna replace the drums with samples and make a 600hz HPF in the OHs is strictly necessary
to have the snare in the center of the image?


P.S: i was aiming to make a "metal oriented" overhead tutorial
of course if you record an acoustic pop or jazz band many things would be different

If hi-passing the overheads eliminates the snare totally, then getting the snar ein the center is not essential. Even fi it doesn't totally eliminate the snare, you can setup a sidechainc ompressor to duck the overheads triggered by a snare track. Furthermore, if the minimal amount of snare is coming in on the overheads slightly left, you can always pan the snare track slightly right to even it out. It might even make the snare a bit more spacious.

Oh absolutely, my point was just about how totally silly and impractical the 3:1 rule ends up being.

Haha, yeah. 3:1 is pretty much impossible with drum overheads. My professor always liked to use a close miked trumpet as an example for the 3:1 rule.

As always, it's YMMV. The whole reason a spaced omni pair as room mics can work is b/c it violates the 3:1 rule. And then you get into 1:3 rule territory.

 

[joeymusicguy]

tip: when setting the gain for both mic's (spaced stereo pair), have the drummer WAIL on the snare hitting it as hard as he can repeatedly. while he's doing this, get the peak level in both mic's even, and adjust for clipping of any kind. then back down the gain a little, (hitting a snare and another cymbal at the same time is going to be louder than just the snare).

as the drummer continues to hit the snare really hard, open a phase scope and check for stereo balance. adjust gain accordingly until the snare is achieving a centered stereo image. this will usually mean that one of the sides is going to go up or down in volume by a few decibels.

also, do not ignore the 3:1 rule when using a spaced pair

mixing: use a limiter (any of the waves limiters will kill a snare) to kill the snare
use a high pass filter to remove low end and boxy sound

 

[The-Zeronaut]

as the drummer continues to hit the snare really hard, open a phase scope and check for stereo balance. adjust gain accordingly until the snare is achieving a centered stereo image. this will usually mean that one of the sides is going to go up or down in volume by a few decibels.

so...you dont aim for the snare in the center "physically" but with the mic gain?

 

[egan.]

]
also, do not ignore the 3:1 rule when using a spaced pair

I've pretty much said my peace on this....but, please explain how it is possible to get 2 rack toms and a snare drum simultaneously equidistant or 1/3 the distance away from each of two noncoincident mics? The only way I can conceive of this working is if you are basically close micing the cymbals. This is totally a valid method but it isn't a traditional spaced pair OH setup either.
So that raises the question. What are you applying it to? Just cymbals?

 

[The-Zeronaut]

Could somebody explain the rules and tips for Close miking cymbals?


what i don't understand is "having the snare in the center of the image" when the snare ISNT in the center of the drumkit
it is slightly to the left (from drummers perspective)