I need your help for an overhead tutorial

For a single kick set-up, you slice the kit up diagonally until the kick and snare are centered and then mic from there. The kit I did today had double kicks so the snare was indeed centered. Almost made the whole situation even harder for various reasons, but the stereo image of the kit is spot on.

If you're filtering heavily, a centered snare in the OHs isn't essential, but I tend to shoot for it regardless. It's always better to have image cohesion if possible.
 
The-Zeronaut said:
so...you dont aim for the snare in the center "physically" but with the mic gain?
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correct, because its the loudest part of the kit, its the easiest way to obtain even gain for both channels

you're not really tryin to record the snare in these mics anyways (well im not, these tips probably dont work for people who do it the normal way)

my goal is to get an even stereo image, and i do it like this

then i kill the snare in this track so it doesnt matter

listen to my work and see if you like the results. i could care less if its right or wrong haha.
 
egan. said:
I've pretty much said my peace on this....but, please explain how it is possible to get 2 rack toms and a snare drum simultaneously equidistant or 1/3 the distance away from each of two noncoincident mics? The only way I can conceive of this working is if you are basically close micing the cymbals. This is totally a valid method but it isn't a traditional spaced pair OH setup either.
So that raises the question. What are you applying it to? Just cymbals?
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thats not what the 3:1 rule means

the 3:1 rule means dont have any microphones closer than 3 feet from each other.

i replace each physical drum (kick, snare, toms) so it doesnt matter if i mic or trigger it.

3:1 rule still applies.
 
Ermz said:
For a single kick set-up, you slice the kit up diagonally until the kick and snare are centered and then mic from there. The kit I did today had double kicks so the snare was indeed centered. Almost made the whole situation even harder for various reasons, but the stereo image of the kit is spot on.

If you're filtering heavily, a centered snare in the OHs isn't essential, but I tend to shoot for it regardless. It's always better to have image cohesion if possible.
Click to expand...

+1
 
Joey,
You are a little bit confused about the 3:1 rule.

The 3:1 rule:
The second mic should be placed in relation to the first mic 3x the distance between the first mic and the source.

Exs:
distance Mic1 ---> Tom1 - 3 Inches
Mic 2 miking Tom 2 should be at least 9 inches from Mic 1

distance Mic3 ---> Crash 1 - 1 feet
Mic 4 miking Crash 2 should be at least 3 feet from Mic 3

So 3:1 rule doesn't mean it's 3 feet : 1 feet


PS: I agree with Egan that in a Metal production with a lot of mics this becomes impossible.
 
joeymusicguy said:
tip: when setting the gain for both mic's (spaced stereo pair), have the drummer WAIL on the snare hitting it as hard as he can repeatedly. while he's doing this, get the peak level in both mic's even, and adjust for clipping of any kind. then back down the gain a little, (hitting a snare and another cymbal at the same time is going to be louder than just the snare).

as the drummer continues to hit the snare really hard, open a phase scope and check for stereo balance. adjust gain accordingly until the snare is achieving a centered stereo image. this will usually mean that one of the sides is going to go up or down in volume by a few decibels.

also, do not ignore the 3:1 rule when using a spaced pair

mixing: use a limiter (any of the waves limiters will kill a snare) to kill the snare
use a high pass filter to remove low end and boxy sound
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thank you joey, i live by this when i mic drums, i always have them hit the snare and only the snare then i change the mic gain untill its centerd in my ears and in my eyes (the vu) i just love the way it sounds snare is tight in the middle the cymbals usually have huge stereo image
 
One question....
whatever mic technique i would use (spaced pair , ortf ,xy...)
if i decide to mic the china and the ride individually...what would i have to do to "control" the phase?
3:1?(with xy and ortf it would be imposible)

something in the editing/mixing?
 
The-Zeronaut said:
One question....
whatever mic technique i would use (spaced pair , ortf ,xy...)
if i decide to mic the china and the ride individually...what would i have to do to "control" the phase?
3:1?(with xy and ortf it would be imposible)

something in the editing/mixing?
Click to expand...

Probably best off to just place everything where it sounds best and nudge the tracks for phase errors afterwards. It is impossible to mic a drum kit and have all the bleed be in phase though really man, do your best but no need to overthink it IMO.
 
All mics pointing down are ok.
The mics that pointing up (snare bottom, ride from underneath, sometimes Oh) need to be phase reversed.
It is realy that simple;)
You can also zoom in your DAW extremely to control the amplitudes of the drum takes to each other.
 
The-Zeronaut said:
One question....
whatever mic technique i would use (spaced pair , ortf ,xy...)
if i decide to mic the china and the ride individually...what would i have to do to "control" the phase?
3:1?(with xy and ortf it would be imposible)

something in the editing/mixing?
Click to expand...

Definitely no need to overthink it. Position the mics until everything blends right and SOUNDS right to you. Experiment with polarity reverse on the way down. Whatever sounds the most in, roll with it. If you have problems down the track, only then experiment with nudging everything.

There is a camp out there who make sure all their mics are as in phase as possible by nudging afterwards and honestly I've only ever found that to sound weird to me. The transients become stronger and fatter but the ambience of the kit diminishes somewhat. Anyway, in a sample-replace heavy genre like metal it isn't so crucial.

As far as the 3-1 rule goes, I've always thought it, and been taught it, to mean that the mics should be at least 3 times the distance from each other as they are from the sources they mic. Now I'm not particularly sure how this can apply to spaced pair overheads where both are essentially mic'ing the same source. The bleed from one is essential to the other because that's how the drums are positioned across the stereo field. It's not gonna be the strongest image in the world given the inherent imperfections of the technique, but as long as the phasing between the two SOUNDS right (particularly in mono), who cares? Joe listener isn't going to sit there and measure how many degrees out of phase the 3rd china is during the breakdown.
 
Ermz said:
Definitely no need to overthink it. Position the mics until everything blends right and SOUNDS right to you. Experiment with polarity reverse on the way down. Whatever sounds the most in, roll with it. If you have problems down the track, only then experiment with nudging everything.

There is a camp out there who make sure all their mics are as in phase as possible by nudging afterwards and honestly I've only ever found that to sound weird to me. The transients become stronger and fatter but the ambience of the kit diminishes somewhat. Anyway, in a sample-replace heavy genre like metal it isn't so crucial.

As far as the 3-1 rule goes, I've always thought it, and been taught it, to mean that the mics should be at least 3 times the distance from each other as they are from the sources they mic. Now I'm not particularly sure how this can apply to spaced pair overheads where both are essentially mic'ing the same source. The bleed from one is essential to the other because that's how the drums are positioned across the stereo field. It's not gonna be the strongest image in the world given the inherent imperfections of the technique, but as long as the phasing between the two SOUNDS right (particularly in mono), who cares? Joe listener isn't going to sit there and measure how many degrees out of phase the 3rd china is during the breakdown.
Click to expand...
I agree with all of this. (+1)
 
joeymusicguy and Catharsisstudios set different input levels of overhead L and overhead R to center the snare in the stereo image. I understand the concept. But how common is that ? How do the rest of you guys feel about it ? I always took for granted that OH channel levels should match. Right now i´m thinking about trying that in my next session. :)
 
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/rate-my-mix-tone-threads/508259-real-drums.html

my most recent work in progress thing im doing, no sample replacement, i just moved the tracks in pt to get em phase aligned, easy as. each akg is panned the same in each channel, i think maybe 60%

the overhead image is pretty wide i think, and i prefer micing cymbals this close, if not closer depending on how much they move around!

not fussed on the 3:1 rule unless im doin jazz or summat where you dont actually eq anything as thats the tones straight away caus most of the time they are using cracking drums, piano, bass etc
 
I've always looked at my overheads as cymbal mics, so really I just make sure I'm capturing what cymbals I want and what I don't want with the mic and getting the best sound. Spaced pair always worked best for me. I've sometimes had to ignore the 3:1 rule due to the size of the kit and the placement of the cymbals. But still I always flip around the polarity and even still 95% they are still in phase, but usually out with the snare. Once I HP to keep mostly the cymbals the phase becomes less of an issue anyways. I use the Room mics to give me the stereo image usually Mid side technique.
 
For me the important thing is to have the snare centered in the OH image, because also if you limit/filter the oh's tracks, you can hear the snare left or right.
I tend to adjust the mics to have the snare pretty centered, also aiming the mics away from the snare.
The 3:1 tecnique is good but the 90% of the times you can't apply it very well because every drummer has a different setup.
Finally, when I check some pro's drum micing pics, it seems that the mics don't follow any rule...but they are placed where they sound good.
 
should overhead technique be different when JUST recording cymbals? as in...drums were recorded in midi with an electronic drumkit and i now want to go in and record cymbals acoustically...


1 on the hihat, 1 on the china, and to crossed pairs overhead?
 
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