Jari's rant about Wintersun, Nuclear Blast, and crowdfunding

[OrionSon]

The odds that any artist is just sitting on five albums of material, with "no filler", fall between slim and none. First off, how many bands have put out five consecutive albums without a single bad track? Take whatever miniscule number that is, and divide it by the number of bands who didn't actually write any of that material between albums, but rather simply pulled it all out of an old catalog of songs they already completed. Then multiply that by the factor of Jari (a guy whose rantings suggest the mind of an individual completely removed from the realities of the music business) and you have your answer.

We can't fault the guy for saying there is no filler on his new unreleased stuff. We don't call bullshit on every other musician ever who does that.

 

[dcowboys311]

We can't fault the guy for saying there is no filler on his new unreleased stuff. We don't call bullshit on every other musician ever who does that.

I'm sure if they all took their Xanga posts public too, we'd start.

 

[nailz]

It might piss off their distributors to lose what I would imagine would be an enormous bulk of the initial sales of that record. It would also piss off the people who handle the mail order side of the label because they lose out there too.

And they would inevitably lose their first week chart positions worldwide as well, which would throw a lot of things into flux. Agents decide tours based on this data, marketing does campaigns based on it, etc.

While I find your input reasonable, it leads me to the question: So how did Protest the Hero do it when they crowd funded, what was it, 350,000$ for their album with a $10 digital download?

Wouldn't every distro bolt from it when the bulk of the cds have already been sold? If they did that, wouldn't that throw off their touring info? I mean, it seems like they're not NOT touring.

I'm not trying to be contradictory, it just seems like it must be possible.

 

[AngraRULES]

While I find your input reasonable, it leads me to the question: So how did Protest the Hero do it when they crowd funded, what was it, 350,000$ for their album with a $10 digital download?

Wouldn't every distro bolt from it when the bulk of the cds have already been sold? If they did that, wouldn't that throw off their touring info? I mean, it seems like they're not NOT touring.

I'm not trying to be contradictory, it just seems like it must be possible.

PTH wasn't tied to a record label. They were doing that as an independent artist.

 

[Mardoch]

While I find your input reasonable, it leads me to the question: So how did Protest the Hero do it when they crowd funded, what was it, 350,000$ for their album with a $10 digital download?

Wouldn't every distro bolt from it when the bulk of the cds have already been sold? If they did that, wouldn't that throw off their touring info? I mean, it seems like they're not NOT touring.

I'm not trying to be contradictory, it just seems like it must be possible.

Additionally couldn't they extract sales/demographic info from the payers to the campaign? It's still sales data, right?

Ratings I can still see, because those will only count the usual sales channels.

And like Milton beat me to, PtH wasn't contract bound at the time. The campaign's popularity did allow them to play hardball with distribution though (at least according to what they've said in interviews).

 

[OrionSon]

I'm sure they could count that as sales somehow. They're still shipping out CD's, and I'm sure distros would still take something that big, even if they miss out on first week.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

While I find your input reasonable, it leads me to the question: So how did Protest the Hero do it when they crowd funded, what was it, 350,000$ for their album with a $10 digital download?

Wouldn't every distro bolt from it when the bulk of the cds have already been sold? If they did that, wouldn't that throw off their touring info? I mean, it seems like they're not NOT touring.

I'm not trying to be contradictory, it just seems like it must be possible.

Protest The Hero did theirs after fulfilling their deals, then got funding, then licensed the rights to print and distribute the record to labels. Those labels took the risk releasing that PTH record knowing they wouldn't sell as much, and their distros knew that too. On top of that, in most licensing deals, the label doesn't do much marketing since it gets such a small % of the pie.

With Wintersun, there are sales expectations that have to be met. They're on a traditional record deal. That means, in order to meet those expectations, there are minimum marketing and PR budgets that not only are expect from distros, but also from the PR and marketing people, the management, and booking agents.

 

[nailz]

Ok, that makes sense. Counterpoint: Wouldn't it benefit NB to get behind and co-sponsor the "presale" of Time II using this crowdfunding and correlating data on release date? It seems like getting presales like this would only benefit trying to book the band live if information is that vital. They could take the pre-orders and cut Jari a check for whatever extra comes through.

Or, again, maybe that's why he's bitching so hard, because he won't get all the money up front. But in theory...

 

[AeonicSlumber]

Ok, that makes sense. Counterpoint: Wouldn't it benefit NB to get behind and co-sponsor the "presale" of Time II using this crowdfunding and correlating data on release date? It seems like getting presales like this would only benefit trying to book the band live if information is that vital. They could take the pre-orders and cut Jari a check for whatever extra comes through.

Yes. I made a post about this earlier in the thread.

... they could just promise NB they would order copies from them as giveaways (with the donations money of course) and just time everything to the street date so as not to fuck up the marketing for the record or the label's standing with their distros. Normally it's an easy fix, but Wintersun is so tied up with so much money given to them that it's not going to happen.

 

[General Zod]

So, you're saying there's a chance?

LOL. Definitely. It's like they say about the lottery... all you need is a dollar and a poor understanding of statistical probability.

We can't fault the guy for saying there is no filler on his new unreleased stuff. We don't call bullshit on every other musician ever who does that.

He's not saying there's no filler on his next album, he's saying there's no filler on his next five. If any artist said they have five albums worth of material waiting to go, with no filler, I would in fact call bullshit. And quite frankly, I'll call bullshit regarding 99% of what artists say about their forthcoming release. How many times have you heard a musician say, "The new album is heavier" when it wasn't? How many times have you heard an artist say, "The new album is a return to their roots" when it wasn't? The list goes on.

 

[OrionSon]

LOL. Definitely. It's like they say about the lottery... all you need is a dollar and a poor understanding of statistical probability.

He's not saying there's no filler on his next album, he's saying there's no filler on his next five. If any artist said they have five albums worth of material waiting to go, with no filler, I would in fact call bullshit. And quite frankly, I'll call bullshit regarding 99% of what artists say about their forthcoming release. How many times have you heard a musician say, "The new album is heavier" when it wasn't? How many times have you heard an artist say, "The new album is a return to their roots" when it wasn't? The list goes on.

That I'll admit. I believe he has 5 albums, maybe even equal to Time I, which I thought was great. But I'm sure there's filler. Personally, I don't think Time I had filler, if you ignore the instrumental interludes. But it's easy to have no filler when you have only 3 songs and take 8 years to release them, so who knows what Jari is talking about. I'll believe when(if?) I hear it, basically.

 

[No Username]

What amazes me here is that people think there is something intrinsically wrong with crowd sourcing a product. He is derided for wanting money to finish his album in a studio, instead of his shitty apartment. Several people point at DT and his ability to produce an entire disk from his apartment. I am willing to bet that a lot of people in Finland would KILL to have an apartment as nice as DT's with the quiet neighbors, good electrical wiring and all the other amenities available in a 1st world apartment.

Simply put, I have no problem at all with someone whining about getting this kind of funding...if they can pull it off, more power to them! Having bands break the chains of the record labels is the only way we are going to have real innovation and bring the entire music industry back from the brink. If a guy can get 55,000 bucks to make potato salad/, then the only thing we should criticize about the rant is that he did not phrase it in a way that would make everyone want to buy in without criticism.

 

[PureXul]

What amazes me here is that people think there is something intrinsically wrong with crowd sourcing a product. He is derided for wanting money to finish his album in a studio, instead of his shitty apartment.

I don't think anyone has a problem with him wanting to use crowdfunding, the problem is that he wants to ignore the terms of a contract whose benefits he has already reaped. If he can do a Kickstarter campaign to build himself a studio without using a copy of Time II as a perk, more power to him. I'll certainly buy Time II once he uses the new studio to finish it, which I'm sure would be a prompt release with all of that new equipment that he no doubt can master quickly since his track record with technology is so good.

My main problem is that he presents half truths (at best), throws his record label under the bus with his fan base, and seems to pretend that he's facing problems that no other artist has ever dealt with. Henri Sorvali of Moonsorrow presented some thought on the topic via his blog.

 

[General Zod]

That I'll admit. I believe he has 5 albums, maybe even equal to Time I, which I thought was great. But I'm sure there's filler.

The other strange part of it is, does any artist even want to be putting out material ten years from now (assuming he releases an album every two years) that he wrote ten or twelve years ago? Wouldn't someone who's a self-proclaimed perfectionist want to constantly be refining and evolving their sound? The whole thing is just kind of strange.

I don't think anyone has a problem with him wanting to use crowdfunding, the problem is that he wants to ignore the terms of a contract whose benefits he has already reaped.

This. You signed a contract, you reaped the benefits of that contract, now stop whining and fulfill your end of the deal. As others have said, he's acting like such a brat that he's actually made a corporation come across as sympathetic.

My main problem is that he presents half truths (at best), throws his record label under the bus with his fan base, and seems to pretend that he's facing problems that no other artist has ever dealt with. Henri Sorvali of Moonsorrow presented some thought on the topic via his blog.[/quote]And so this. To me, Moonsorrow's sound is way more epic that Wintersun's. So if those guys can get it done, it really leaves Jari with little room for excuses.

As for Henri's blog, I think he nails it. It's about the music, not the toys. And while the right atmosphere can add a lot to a song, it's just that; additive. Ultimately it's about the riff and the melody.

 

[AeonicSlumber]

What amazes me here is that people think there is something intrinsically wrong with crowd sourcing a product. He is derided for wanting money to finish his album in a studio, instead of his shitty apartment. Several people point at DT and his ability to produce an entire disk from his apartment. I am willing to bet that a lot of people in Finland would KILL to have an apartment as nice as DT's with the quiet neighbors, good electrical wiring and all the other amenities available in a 1st world apartment.

I'm assuming by DT you mean Devin Townsend? He has a full studio and also rents out studios if he needs a bigger drum room etc. He doesn't work out of a little apartment. In fact, the second Ziltoid album was recorded mostly in LA, which is a ways away from his home in Vancouver.

Devin's also a MUCH bigger name than Jari is, AND he owns the rights to all of his material and licenses it to labels for distribution and marketing. So he can easily do crowdfunding campaigns to get more money.

Having bands break the chains of the record labels is the only way we are going to have real innovation and bring the entire music industry back from the brink.

Except you can't just "break the chains" of a contract you're legally bound to. If he wants to do a crowdfund campaign, he'll have to either do it under a different moniker, or he'll have to wait for the deal with NB to finish.

 

[NorseBlood]

Wintersun is crowdfunding a studio and their next album "The Forest Seasons". For 50 Euros (around $53 USD) you can help them purchase a studio and get their next album and more when its ready. It looks like they might actually pull this off. The crowdfunding ends at the end of the month. If you want to get in on it here is more info from Jari and his krue..

Wintersun's Crowdfunding page..
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/wintersun-crowdfunding--3#/

 

[NorseBlood]

Six days left on the crowdfunding guys. You get a lot of stuff in return besides just helping this band out. You get what they call the Wintersun Forest package, and here is what it includes:

Includes: Wintersun - The Forest Seasons *NEW ALBUM*, The Forest Seasons 5K BOOKLET, Wintersun - The Forest Seasons INSTRUMENTAL, Wintersun - The Forest Seasons ISOLATED TRACKS, Wintersun - TIME I 1.5 REMASTER, Wintersun 2.0 REMASTER, Wintersun Live at Tuska 2013 LIVE ALBUM, Wintersun - Loneliness (Winter) Acoustic FREE BONUS!

Seemed like a pretty good deal to me, so I put down 50 euros on it today. Besides, there is something about helping out these guys break free from "the man" at Nuclear Blast that is sort of appealing to me.

 

[NorseBlood]

Wintersun crowdfunding ended yesterday. With 8596 supporters they raised 428,310 euros ($456,150.15). Not too shabby. For those who supported the crowdfunding effort you'll get your "Forest Package" in July. I'm thinking their 24-bit masters should sound pretty awesome. Also looking forward to their release of the isolated tracks and of course the acoustic version of WInter.

Maybe @Harvester will finally get them to come to ProgPower next. Who knows?

 

[KingsGene]

More discussion about the latest album The Forest Seasons here...
Wintersun: The Forest Seasons