KIUAS, NOVEMBERS DOOM, PERZONAL WAR: First Announced Bands for CHICAGO POWERFEST 2009

[Novembers Paul]

Playing devils advocate, because where I agree with you guys on hoping the headliners were less common in the states, making it more special to see, I keep seeing statements like "Ruin their reputation" and disappointing the regulars. What regulars? The 25 guys on the forum? Guys... This show SHOULD draw several hundred people, maybe even more then last year. You need to take a step back and look at it from the promoters point of view. It's not really ALL that concerning that they might upset 25 people on the forum, to gain another couple hundred in the door.

If Powerfest had 2 or 3 stages, and 20 to 30 bands each day, NO ONE would bitch at the headliners, because they would have many other options of bands to see. BUT, since there's only 5 or 6 a day, it makes it almost impossible to please EVERYONE. Sure, Rob and Chris could lower their standards, and cram a bunch of bands on the bill, and make them pay to play, like Milwaukee Metalfest back in the day. That's how a few like that was able to pay for many headliners, but I really respect the fact the bands are all hand picked, and invited to play. They are doing things correctly, to slowly build the fest, and getting more main steam bands to play. As fan of UNDERGROUND metal, are we a bit let down? Sure, BUT, if this year succeeds, it will open doors for the following years to bring in BOTH main stream AND underground bands together.

What the fest needs is SUPPORT from everyone, and Rob and Chris may need to think of possibly adding an investor for next year, to INCLUDE a band like My Dying Bride, or Amon Amarth along side with a Devil Driver, and really round out the fest. That however, is just a suggestion. I think they are doing a great job putting this all together, and I certainly wouldn't want to do it.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

"The people who listen to bands liek Soil and Devildriver are not your types who hunt down new bands or search stuff out online...they are the MTV Headbanger Ball types. They are the ones who need to be told who is good. I have seen this stuff for 20 years now."

I think that's a bit of an unfair judgement to pass, really. Are alot of the fans of those bands the kind of people you are describing? Sure. But I don't think it's all of them, not even close. Like I said before, I hear from people from all over who tell me they love us and got turned onto us by someone, or saw the "Autumn Reflection" video on Comcast or whatever. And I look at their profiles and I see they like bands like Devildriver and Killswitch Engage and Kittie and all sorts of other stuff. Sure there's plenty of people who have that mentality of "If it ain't on Headbangers Ball or on the Ozzfest tour then it ain't happenin'", but to just presume that everyone who likes those bands thinks that way and therefore never try to reach out and appeal to them by playing on a fest like this or whatever is folly in my opinion. And I've been watching this stuff for well over 20 years too, so....I do agree that people don't give the "openers" a fair shake often times, and that's not just from the Headbangers Ball crowd, that's a problem with ALL metal crowds I've seen. I think in the case of Thurisaz, alot more people probably were curious to check them out, but they started so damned early, and I know for a fact that alot of people stumbled in there barely in time to catch us, or Saturnus, because they were up partying so late the night before! LOL That's just the hazzard of being the opening act I guess. Probably would've been more fair to give that opening slot to some local up-and-comer band who would've been thrilled just to be on the bill at all, and let the band coming all the way from Belgium at least get to play a lil' bit later.

 

[General Zod]

I keep seeing statements like "Ruin their reputation" and disappointing the regulars. What regulars?

OK... I'm obviously quoting you somewhat out of context, but doesn't that part of your statement actually illustrate the proble?. "What regulars?" Exactly.

I'd bet, at ProgPower this year, 80% of the people who will be in attendance have attended a previous ProgPower. Even at HC3, I'd bet the majority of folks there had attended a previous HC. What percentage of people, who will be in attendance on Friday, will have attended a previous CPF? And of those people who are newcomers to CPF, what percentage will be back?

Plans A - T fell through, so they went with Plan V. That's fine. They did what they needed to do to keep from losing their shirts. But they shouldn't come on the board and try to sell us that this was an intentional move to grow the festival. It wasn't. It was Plan V. If the move was part of a larger strategy, they wouldn't have went after "30" (Rob's quote) other headliners first.

I think they are doing a great job putting this all together, and I certainly wouldn't want to do it.

As you said, you're playing Devil's advocate. However, I had my bags packed, and my wife and I had scheduled the days off in our respective work calendars... and then this announcement. They could have booked bands I had no interest in. But they actually went a step further, and booked bands that draw a crowd that I have no interest in sharing club floor space with. Would I have flown to Chicago just for Novembers Doom? Yes. Will I fly there to see Novembers Doom immersed in a crowd of 700 Devildriver and Soil fans. I'm sorry... I won't. These headliners are a one year band-aid, not part of a long term strategy to build/grow the festival.

I think that's a bit of an unfair judgement to pass, really. Are alot of the fans of those bands the kind of people you are describing? Sure. But I don't think it's all of them, not even close. Like I said before, I hear from people from all over who tell me they love us and got turned onto us by someone, or saw the "Autumn Reflection" video on Comcast or whatever. And I look at their profiles and I see they like bands like Devildriver and Killswitch Engage and Kittie and all sorts of other stuff. Sure there's plenty of people who have that mentality of "If it ain't on Headbangers Ball or on the Ozzfest tour then it ain't happenin'", but to just presume that everyone who likes those bands thinks that way and therefore never try to reach out and appeal to them by playing on a fest like this or whatever is folly in my opinion.

I think the mere fact these people didn't hear your music until Corporate America (Comcast) served them up a video, actually proves Diab0lik's point. I'm not suggesting that these people might not like good music if they heard it. But these people are satisfied with listening to whatever MTV, Comcast and Live Nation offers them. Music, is no different than their fashion, their favorite reality T.V. show, their favorite soft drink... it's disposable.

Now I recognize that not everyone is going to be the music freaks that some of us here are. However, when a promoter chooses to cater to these folks (who mostly blow with the wind), over the people who actually actively support them (and are interested in becoming long term customers), then those promoters will learn that we too vote with our dollars and that you can't take our attendance for granted.

All that said, I will be very interested to find out how many tickets they sell. Aside from the fact that I believe this announcement forfeits anyone who would actually have to get on a plane, I believe they're overestimating the local popularity of these two bands. It seems to be a given that these bands will sell these tickets. I don't think it is.

Zod

 

[AnTz0r]

Well Zod, I think the point Paul is trying to make that if they were to keep booking undergroundish metal bands, there actually needs to be an audience for them. You are taking this personal: I come out to this fest to support it. I now feel betrayed because of the shitty headliners.

They are looking from another perspective: they need several hundred people in there to keep their fest afloat. I'm sure people who support the fest year after year mean a great deal to them, but if those few rabid supporters are not enough for them, they need to consider catering another group of visitors. Everybody who says: "I'm not gonna take a day off from work to watch 1 band" contributes to this problem. I'm in the lucky position to have been able to see ND 4 times now, but a lot of people here haven't seen them once while they claim to be a fan. I realize distances in the US are much bigger, but in the end it's the CPF organizers who have to consider if the juice is worth the squeeze (i love that quote, hehe).

Maybe prog fans are more faithful than metal fans?

 

[Diabolik]

I think what The Powerfest guys do every year is a great thing. They could easily say..."screw it", "we are done with this crap". But they dont. On that end I will always tip my hat off to them. Like Zod said....this year is very different that what they have done in previous years. Again, like Zod said...I really dont want to be sharing the floor with the types of fans who are just there to get drunk and slam into each other. Which is the type of person who Devildriver brings in. Am I a pussy? maybe so. I have been going to show for almost over 20 years and Unless it is a band I really want to see...I will deal with it. For this bunch...heck no.

I agree with what you are saying Paul.. about if there were more stages people would be bitching less. Very true...people would have somewhere to go during bands they didnt want to see or be around. I am a person though who doesnt want to see mainstream acts mixed in with underground ones. Not that I dont want to see any band get more fans, but I have seen fans of larger acts heckle bands they dont understand or are different. At Milwaukee Metalfest a while back the band Amber Asylum was playing. They were 4 girls...basically using classic instruments. It wasnt bad but something totally different for that fest. The whole time they played people were yelling "show us you tits", "put that in you cunt" and so on. It sucked because they were a breath of fresh air at the time after listening to 5 hours of generic death metal. As much as it is fun to crack on Milwuakee Metalfest...lets not forget....they bought over some incredible bands. Sure the whole fest was shady as hell and they really screwed me over the last time I went with the line up switch at the last minute.

You can say that you would take 100 new fans over the 25 from the forum. Those 25 have been supporters year round. Will most of them go...probably. But like Zod said...there are lots from out of town who come in every year but now have decided not to. That is a big loss. You just lost that out of state interest, which makes fest interesting. Every year most of the people I end up talking to are the ones from out of state. It is like that time if year where I am able to meet in person the people that I talk to on the forums. Where the Heathen Crusade and ProgPower and euro fest alwasy bring in the same people each year because they enjoy going to the fest and seeing everyone again, even if the line up isnt as good maybe as a previous year...they still go to support it and see everyone. Maybe see a band they never heard of. This year...most everyone has heard Soil and Devildriver and already know they dont like them.

We can sit on here all month long complaining and posting. In reality...nothing is going to change my opinion. I look at it as a vacation day now saved. I have Pagan Fest 2 to look forward to. I really hope next year the line up is a little more catered to the underground music scene.

 

[General Zod]

Well Zod, I think the point Paul is trying to make that if they were to keep booking undergroundish metal bands, there actually needs to be an audience for them. You are taking this personal: I come out to this fest to support it. I now feel betrayed because of the shitty headliners.

Not at all. I don't view this announcement as any sort of personal affront or betrayal. It's merely a conversation that I find very interesting and one which I have strong opinions on.

They are looking from another perspective: they need several hundred people in there to keep their fest afloat.

Well, that was sort of point... they're not looking at it from another perspective. The festival's promoters said they tried to book 30 other headliners before settling on Devildriver and Soil. But now that they have, they're trying to sell the announcement, like it's some sort of long term strategy to grow the festival. I disagree with that assertion on two counts. First, I don't think it will grow the festival. Second, if they did book these bands as part of a strategy, they would have booked them as choice #1, not choice #31.

Everybody who says: "I'm not gonna take a day off from work to watch 1 band" contributes to this problem.

What problem are they contributing to.

I'm in the lucky position to have been able to see ND 4 times now, but a lot of people here haven't seen them once while they claim to be a fan.

I've seen them on two occasions. But I'm not sure that makes me a bigger fan than someone whose never been fortunate enough to do so.

Zod

 

[Diabolik]

I think which will be my final post about this topic until the whole line up is finalized. I have had a few private chats with Rob about the line up. I know thier heart is in the right place. I will agree with Zod again, I think it is the chosen words about the headliners that is the issue. If they said, this was one of out top 5 choices...I could accept that but dont try and sell me something else. But as a promoter....you just cant go out andstart saying...this is who we were stuck with. it is far from professional. While I wont be there this year, unless the saturday headliners are good. I will be there again to support them next year. I wish them well and hopefully they make money and hope all the bands sell plenty of merchandise.

 

[AnTz0r]

What problem are they contributing to.

Well, you mentioned that progpower for example generates a much larger regular fanbase. Maybe a lot of the visitors of that festival (don't know what it's like in the US, judging from what it's like here) have a more open mind as to who's performing, open to new bands, or have a diverser interest to start with compared to the average metal head. a lot of metal heads here have some favourite bands, and don't care to see bands they don't know. we've seen examples of that in this thread itself. The problem is then that booking a very specific metal program doesn't generate a large enough base of regular visitors to sustain the fest on the long term.

I've seen them on two occasions. But I'm not sure that makes me a bigger fan than someone whose never been fortunate enough to do so.

no, but if a metal fest books a relatively specific local act and even local fans don't show up, they might as well go for bigger, more "general" act.

 

[Jasonic]

If they said, this was one of out top 5 choices...I could accept that but dont try and sell me something else.

You just brought up something that has been bothering me about this year's announcements, but I have been quiet on.

I really dislike how they make comments like, "This fits in with our direction of including hard rock, etc......" I might be off a bit, but it was something along those lines. Don't really care enough to go back and get the exact quote.

From a "Regulars" point of view, it seems they have ZERO focus.
Any organization (be it a corporation, collective, baseball team, glee club, boy scouts, etc) needs to have a mission statement.

You can't just be everything to everyone.

I have said it a zillion times, as have others.
Their appeal was in booking bands who otherwise would not be able to play the states. Sure, they are doing that with some of the undercard foreign bands. That's also assuming that people coming just for DevilDriver and Soil will be there to see them.

Their hearts are in the right places. I know they need to do what they need to do to remain profitable. Paul said it best. I would NOT want to be in their shoes.

They will lose a lot of regulars this year.
They will say they don't care, which is fine.

Are they doing the sponsorship thing again this year?
I am guessing your average DevilDriver fan isn't going to plunk down an extra $500 to see a band who tours every year anyhow, just to "Support the cause"

I certainly hope there are a lot of open minded folks this year who dig Novembers Doom. It would be cool to see some new faces aside from Ken (metalprof), Dan (Danimal) and myself at the local shows!

I still really question whether or not the DevilDriver fans will really give a rat's ass that this is part of a festival. I mean, its not like DD are a band that never tours. They aren't going to feel like, "Wow, this is something special that I want to support!" It's another DevilDriver show.

On the flipside, we all cried "This is something we want to support" after their booking of Noc Rites, Lefay, Saturnus, etc, etc. You get the point.

 

[NvmbrsDoom5]

Just want to clarify a couple things, as briefly as possible-

First, we don't want it to sound like we're saying "we'd rather play for 100 new people than the 25 fans from the forum", as if we don't care about those 25 fans. We treasure you guys, knowing that we have your support and everything. We're happy to play for you anytime. But would it be a bit of a disappointment if the rest of our careers consisted of only ever playing to the same 25 people and that's all? Of course. Hell we wouldn't have to bother booking gigs, we could squeeze all of ya into our practice room now and then hahaha If we play for a Devildriver crowd and wind up winning over even a dozen new fans, that's great!

And I certainly don't hold it against people who don't dig deep and seek out new underground music. If someone discovers us for the first time by seeing our video on tv, then cool. That's kinda the point of releasing videos like that, to give something cool to the fans we have, and also to hopefully find some new fans.

Graspop booked what many here might call "mainstream" acts on the bill (Whitesnake, Bleeding Through, Bullet For My Valentine, etc.) alongside very heavy and much less known underground acts. Noone got booed offstage or badly heckled, if people didn't want to see one band, they watched a different one on a different stage, or just went and checked out merch, or ate, or drank, etc. The U.S. crowds have a tendency towards having a large amount of people who are just totally intolerant of anything other than what they think is cool and what they feel belongs, and think it's acceptible to heckle and behave like assholes. It's a fucking shame, really.

I realise this fest is causing alot of controversy, and anything we say (no matter how much we're trying to actually be positive and supportive) seems to be taken negatively or the wrong way by one person or another. It's getting pretty frustrating, to be honest with you all.

 

[Jasonic]

I realise this fest is causing alot of controversy, and anything we say (no matter how much we're trying to actually be positive and supportive) seems to be taken negatively or the wrong way by one person or another. It's getting pretty frustrating, to be honest with you all.

I think all of us see you guys as being supportive.
I personally see this shift as a positive for ND, as you will be performing for new eyes and ears.

Zod made a good point about the Euro fests though.
I think its an easier pill to swallow when you are talking over 100 bands VS only 10 bands.

Anyhow, I am not sure anymore needs or can be said about this year's fest.

 

[GateXII]

It was Plan V. If the move was part of a larger strategy, they wouldn't have went after "30" (Rob's quote) other headliners first.

Zod

You obviously have no concept of analogy or exaggeration. And I feel bad for you.

Was just trying to make a point...DUH!!! Nice to know you missed that point!

Here's the post...you may want to read it again...and notice the humor. Eh!!

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/8077666-post28.html

Love how this internet bullshit gets so blown out of proportion & taken out of context.

Damn!! Why can't I ever learn to just shut the fuck up & never say a fuckin thing about anything to try to legitimize our decisions to people like you!!! Shame on me!!! Someone please punch me right in the mouth next time I try explaining why we do what we do! Paul, can you please do that for me? Just don't knock me out, OK.

From now on, speculate all you want. We'll accept the roll of the bad guys to the elitists like yourself, Zod. It's OK...say what you want. It hasn't affected our decisions yet, and it certainly won't going forward. Believe it or not...we're getting better at letting this type of shit not get to us, but sometimes it's just hard...almost like trying to stand by while your kid gets bullied at school. Hopefully our kid (Powerfest) will one day just stand up to people like you on it's own.

Oh damn...there's another analogy. Do I need to explain that one too...or will you know that we really don't actually have a child named Powerfest?

 

[Diabolik]

george foreman has like 7 kids all named George. Think about naming one of your kids "powerfest"....talk about all the free advertising. I like the way you are thinking!

 

[Jasonic]

Bob, you are such a dope.

 

[General Zod]

You obviously have no concept of analogy or exaggeration. And I feel bad for you.

Don't feel bad for me. Although I struggle with analogy and exaggeration, I'm working towards a doctorate in sarcasm.

Whether it was 30, 20, 10 or 5, the point I was making is still a fair one. Devildriver & Soil were booked because the bands you wanted fell through. And as I also said, I get why you guys did what you did. This is a business, first and foremost, and it's important that you not lose your shirts.

Damn!! Why can't I ever learn to just shut the fuck up & never say a fuckin thing about anything to try to legitimize our decisions to people like you!!!

Because I'm irresistible?

From now on, speculate all you want. We'll accept the roll of the bad guys to the elitists like yourself, Zod.

I like Manowar... therefore, I can't be an elitist. Though... I did vote for Obama, which I guess could make me an elitist-east-coast-left-wing-liberal. Regardless, out of curiosity, am I an elitist for thinking these bands are awful or for not wanting to get roundhouse kicked in the head by some jagoff in the pit?

To be fair, if there was a show in Chicago, which was just Devildriver & Soil... would you go?

It's OK...say what you want. It hasn't affected our decisions yet, and it certainly won't going forward. Believe it or not...we're getting better at letting this type of shit not get to us, but sometimes it's just hard...almost like trying to stand by while your kid gets bullied at school. Hopefully our kid (Powerfest) will one day just stand up to people like you on it's own.

It will... the year you book Nevermore. :Spin:

Oh damn...there's another analogy. Do I need to explain that one too...or will you know that we really don't actually have a child named Powerfest?

So if I understand you correctly... you have a child named Powerfest? Wow... that's weird.

Zod

 

[GateXII]

You guys are silly!!

 

[Diabolik]

see Rob...we are all not bad. We just have boring lives and need something to do......this gives me something to live for. I have nothing else in life....ask Jason.

 

[GateXII]

To be fair, if there was a show in Chicago, which was just Devildriver & Soil... would you go?

Zod

Of course! Last time I saw Devildriver, they KILLED!! Plus, they were probably one of the best sounding bands the Pearl Room has ever had! Their soundman is a genius.

And Soil always puts on a great show! I see them almost every time they play around Chicago....and I'm looking forward to their new stuff!! Already heard some demo tracks & it's sounding kick ass!! I think all the naysayers will be pleasantly surprised!

 

[Diabolik]

Of course! Last time I saw Devildriver, they KILLED!! Plus, they were probably one of the best sounding bands the Pearl Room has ever had! They're soundman is a genius.

And Soil always puts on a great show! I see them almost every time they play around Chicago....and I'm looking forward to their new stuff!! Already heard some demo tracks & it's sounding kick ass!! I think all the naysayers will be pleasantly surprised!

someone call Dolly Madision....Zod got zinged!

 

[General Zod]

Of course! Last time I saw Devildriver, they KILLED!! Plus, they were probably one of the best sounding bands the Pearl Room has ever had! Their soundman is a genius.

And Soil always puts on a great show! I see them almost every time they play around Chicago....and I'm looking forward to their new stuff!! Already heard some demo tracks & it's sounding kick ass!! I think all the naysayers will be pleasantly surprised!

Fair enough.

Don't get me wrong... I don't dismiss bands solely based on what genre they fall in. There are a handful of bands, that despite their standing within our little Metal world, I'm quite fond of (Trivium, Lamb of God, Killswitch Engage, Disturbed, Godsmack, etc.).

someone call Dolly Madision....Zod got zinged!

Zod