LORDI win Eurovision!

[Nemesis_lxix]

I wish my country was cool enough to vote a band like lordi.!

 

[Killerdoberman]

F!!! Simon and his pop culture!!!

Metal rules!!! Always has and always will!!!

Congrats, LORDI!!!

 

[Jibrille]

It's better that popular vote rules all. IMO, Finland would have won sooner if Nightwish made it past the qualifying round back then.

 

[woosta]

The industry may get a big positive boost, but I do not see how the scene itself will benefit as seeing Eurovision as a legitimate promotional outlet will cause bands conform to Eurovision standards. I don't like that idea and think it would cause more conformity and watering down than we'd otherwise see.

I guess this is a good place to plug this again.
What Lordi Winning Eurovision Really Means: An Editorial

Gene Simmons says "Any Publicity is good Publicity". Lordi's win reminds people, good or bad, of the existence of hard music. It's a slap in the face of "mainstream" right in their own backyard while doing no damage to the band itself. Lordi united many of the fans of hard music in the sole purpose of helping them to victory as evidenced by "Lordi Voting Parties". Lordi helped to bring Finland into the forefront for an evening, so it was a bit of a National Achievement. Add Nightwish's already known success along with Children of Bodom's up-and-coming status, and you now have a shot at cementing Finland as a strong source of metal and hard rock.

Do you listen to any bands that do that? I know that up until now I didn't.

 

[The_Kinslayer]

It's better that popular vote rules all. IMO, Finland would have won sooner if Nightwish made it past the qualifying round back then.

Well maybe they would have made it past the qualifying round if they had chosen a better song. If my memory is correct, they entered Sleepwalker. Now i love Nightwish, but that song is uke:

 

[Jim LotFP]

It's a slap in the face of "mainstream" right in their own backyard while doing no damage to the band itself.

Lithuania or especially Iceland would have been the slap to the festival. Silvia Night was telling reporters to go fuck themselves, running down the competition, and apparently kicking in the dressing room doors of other competitors, as an act.

Lordi was gracious and participated in the full spirit of the festival. Neither Lordi nor their supporters were slapping the mainstream in the face. They were high-fiving the mainstream.

Lordi united many of the fans of hard music in the sole purpose of helping them to victory as evidenced by "Lordi Voting Parties". Lordi helped to bring Finland into the forefront for an evening, so it was a bit of a National Achievement.

Lordi united many of the fans of hard music to listen to a lot of disco for a three hours, basically.

At least I can say I wasn't fooled. I was watching this insanity last year as well when there was not even a "but this band is in it" pretense for doing so.

 

[St Enigma]

I read the editorial you plugged on the previous page, but allow me to disagree with the wrong conclusions made there. I'll try to reply by commenting these statements below.

Lithuania or especially Iceland would have been the slap to the festival. Silvia Night was telling reporters to go fuck themselves, running down the competition, and apparently kicking in the dressing room doors of other competitors, as an act.

First, Lithuania did not actually perform a song, but a chant or a rap or whatever it might have been. Something too irrelevant to the rules of the competition. I think that all they really got were the "protest votes" in semifinals and also in the finals.

Silvia Night is a character from a popular TV-parody running in Iceland, nothing more. Extending a chapter of the show to be played live for a week at the ESC didn't slap anyone in the face nor in the balls. Outside Icelandic TV the narcissistic and bitchy Silvia-charcter was out of context, and everyone realized it. Under all the icing, ESC remain a song contest and Silvia's song was too closely tied to her character in the TV-show. They were not even close to passíng at the semifinals.

Lordi was gracious and participated in the full spirit of the festival. Neither Lordi nor their supporters were slapping the mainstream in the face. They were high-fiving the mainstream.

Yes, Lordi was gracious to the rules of the competition and maybe to the "spirit" but that was it. If you observed the reactions from the "mainstream" public around the Europe during the week, they really slapped some faces and kicked some serious balls. All that by bringing in at the ESC the exactly same kind of show with masks and pyros and everything which they usually play at metal concerts and festivals to thousands of metalheads without hearing much complaints for "selling out". How can that the called "selling out" at the ESC where the "mainstream is wigging their half naked a**es? :Smug:

(Btw. I find this metal vs. "mainstream" always rather a silly view into music. In Finland your precious metal IS mainstream but it still is the same records like CoB or Reverend Bizarre - like you mentioned - topping the charts here that qualify "underground" or "genuine metal" in the USA !)

Lordi united many of the fans of hard music to listen to a lot of disco for a three hours, basically.

At least I can say I wasn't fooled. I was watching this insanity last year as well when there was not even a "but this band is in it" pretense for doing so.

It's no sin to watch "disco", some performances were really talented and even cool. You seem to have forgotten that the ESC IS (at least used to be in the 80's when it was the last time before this year I watched through a full competition) a contest for talented singers and musicians. Lordi are talented in what they do. They compose their music and play it live themselves, which alone makes the difference to most of the bunch at ESC.
Voting Lordi was a vote to talent and skilled musicians who dare to do what they feel fit without asking permission from anyone. All them genre polices carrying the flag of "genuine" metal may start crying their eyes out and yelling their "sell-outs"-slogans, but who cares? Not Lordi.

Those who genuinely didn't sell out were the ones that never come out of their carage to face the world in the first place, so nobody knows who they are.

One more note I'd like to point out. When a metalhead in the USA and another in Europe use the word "metal" they speak about quite different things.
Average metal image in USA derives the line: punk -> thrash -> core. Driving forces are aggression and attitude.
In Europe the average metal image derives the line: prog -> NWOBHM -> power. Driving forces are talent and musical skill.
There is a big difference. I think that everyone here on PP board knows what I'm talking about, else they wouldn't be visiting here.
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[Jim LotFP]

I read the editorial you plugged on the previous page, but allow me to disagree with the wrong conclusions made there. I'll try to reply by commenting these statements below.

Ah. A chhaaalllleeeeeeeeeennnnnggeeeeeeeeeee! (Stinkoman voice, of course)

First, Lithuania did not actually perform a song, but a chant or a rap or whatever it might have been. Something too irrelevant to the rules of the competition. I think that all they really got were the "protest votes" in semifinals and also in the finals.

I'd call it a march. At last I realized it reminded me of a skit from Whose Line Is It Anyway? And they still got sixth place.

Silvia Night is a character from a popular TV-parody running in Iceland, nothing more. Extending a chapter of the show to be played live for a week at the ESC didn't slap anyone in the face nor in the balls. Outside Icelandic TV the narcissistic and bitchy Silvia-charcter was out of context, and everyone realized it. Under all the icing, ESC remain a song contest and Silvia's song was too closely tied to her character in the TV-show. They were not even close to passíng at the semifinals.

Well, she literally did slap people in the face (and apparently kicked down some doors). Was enough to get booed out of the place. Anyway, the fact that nobody seemed to be in on the joke (and I only was because I had the fortune of hearing an Icelander explain it before the competition) does not invalidate the joke. I thought it was quite similar to Stephen Colbert at that press club dinner.

Yes, Lordi was gracious to the rules of the competition and maybe to the "spirit" but that was it. If you observed the reactions from the "mainstream" public around the Europe during the week, they really slapped some faces and kicked some serious balls. All that by bringing in at the ESC the exactly same kind of show with masks and pyros and everything which they usually play at metal concerts and festivals to thousands of metalheads without hearing much complaints for "selling out". How can that the called "selling out" at the ESC where the "mainstream is wigging their half naked a**es? :Smug:

Lordi can't "sell out" because their entire thing has been pop anyway. Besides, religious types getting ticked off hardly makes one anything of note. The DaVinci Code and Madonna both did it, woooo. Really, I didn't see anything where Lordi was fanning the flames of their protesters. If you've seen something I haven't, let me know.

And as for the "half naked asses" bit, they're selling an image. Lordi is selling their image. Do you think Lordi would have gotten nearly as far with just that song and no costumes?

(Btw. I find this metal vs. "mainstream" always rather a silly view into music. In Finland your precious metal IS mainstream but it still is the same records like CoB or Reverend Bizarre - like you mentioned - topping the charts here that qualify "underground" or "genuine metal" in the USA !)

But there seems to be a different pattern for "charting" when it comes to singles versus albums here in Finland, and certainly when a single charts, it doesn't mean the album sells a lot.

I think it's more a function of record label power in Finland (Spinefarm is owned by a major label so has that kind of muscle, and one person whose livelihood depends on Spinefarm selling albums complains about "Spinefarm metal" being popular). But the full phenomena and the separation of "underground" and "mainstream" in Finland is not something I've fully explored as of yet, so I have no firm opinions on the matter, just some guessing and isolated observations.

But I do believe Finnish fans have far less knowledge about bands not on the big metal labels than fans almost anywhere else.

It's no sin to watch "disco", some performances were really talented and even cool. You seem to have forgotten that the ESC IS (at least used to be in the 80's when it was the last time before this year I watched through a full competition) a contest for talented singers and musicians. Lordi are talented in what they do. They compose their music and play it live themselves, which alone makes the difference to most of the bunch at ESC.

Whether it is a "sin" or not is irrelevant. I contend that Lordi brought more metal/rock fans to pop last weekend than they brought pop fans to metal or hard rock. Maybe you think it's a wonderful thing, maybe it doesn't matter. But I stand by my observation, and leave you to make your own judgment on whether that would be a good or bad thing.

But I was watching Eurovision last year with no "metal" interest in it, and I think I would have watched it this year even if Lordi wasn't in it. Sure, my interest is mostly of the "point and laugh" category (and surely you recognize there is plenty of that to be had no matter how good some of the participants are), but I was watching it. In fact, too many "rock" entries next year will make me less likely to watch it, I'd rather see all the pop tarts. Lordi's involvement and subsequent "atta boys" from people unfamiliar with either Lordi or Eurovision are what caused me to write about it.

Voting Lordi was a vote to talent and skilled musicians who dare to do what they feel fit without asking permission from anyone. All them genre polices carrying the flag of "genuine" metal may start crying their eyes out and yelling their "sell-outs"-slogans, but who cares? Not Lordi.

These "skilled musicians" weren't playing their instruments when the cameras were on and that they had to bring somebody not in the band with them to do the vocal performance. Their props, costumes, and pyro have nothing to do with talent or skill. And they may not have asked permission, but they needed it to be in the contest - they were invited by whoever does the selecting for the Finnish national competition. You don't think that talent and musical skill had more to do with that than the strong image, pop-format songs, and being on a major label, do you? I do believe they cut the song down to fit Eurovision standards as well, but I'm not positive on that because I have not heard the album version and maybe they just cut a long-winded intro.

In bold because I think it's the most thing I'm saying in this post.

Those who genuinely didn't sell out were the ones that never come out of their carage to face the world in the first place, so nobody knows who they are.

Glad you put that in there, even you realize that this really doesn't amount to much in the way of argument.

Average metal image in USA derives the line: punk -> thrash -> core. Driving forces are aggression and attitude.

Everyone reading this, raise your hand if you strive to listen to average metal. I don't. What other people are listening to or buying is irrelevant to what something actually is.

In Europe the average metal image derives the line: prog -> NWOBHM -> power. Driving forces are talent and musical skill.

Sodom, Kreator, Bathory, Celtic Frost, Entombed, Vader, Emperor, etc, are very European, were very well known in their time (and now), and are very representative of European sounds, no matter how popular power metal bands are now.

Besides, punk is a European creation, and it fueled the NWOBHM every bit as much as prog did. The current thing called "metalcore" in the US is derivative of the Swedish scene of the mid-90s, which is itself a combination of US and European influences. Your simplification of traits doesn't work. The implication that "aggression and attitude" are inherently negative traits is wrong as well.

And Lordi. From single #1 with a keyboard-driven, slick chorus about love and acceptance ("Would you love a monsterman/Could you understand beauty of beast/I would do it all for you, would you do it all/Do it all for me"), could use a bit of aggresion and attitude, in a genuine way, not "we dress up like monsters and are proud to represent our country" "attitude."

And your "driving forces" description for both would be wrong as well. The driving force for most bands on either continent is "be like what we listen to," because you have to at least admit that very few bands have a unique signature sound. Talent and musical skill are pretty worthless without artistic vision to drive them.

There is a big difference. I think that everyone here on PP board knows what I'm talking about, else they wouldn't be visiting here.
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I don't understand this part. Are you suggesting that ProgPower attendees have a European self-image?

 

[St Enigma]

Just to clear things up, I can tell you that Lordi actually isn't on my Top 100 list of bands. I'm thinking more about the controversy their attendance in the ESC brought up, and what it means to the metal scene, if anything.

Lordi can't "sell out" because their entire thing has been pop anyway. Besides, religious types getting ticked off hardly makes one anything of note. The DaVinci Code and Madonna both did it, woooo. Really, I didn't see anything where Lordi was fanning the flames of their protesters. If you've seen something I haven't, let me know.

If "pop" refers to "popular" then you are right. Lordi sells pretty well these days, both CDs and gigs. Dan Brown or Madonna really don't rise too many eyebrows in Europe, all the religious hype around them is more of American [catholic] origin. Most people here only shrug when asked about them.

And as for the "half naked asses" bit, they're selling an image. Lordi is selling their image. Do you think Lordi would have gotten nearly as far with just that song and no costumes?

Well, aren't we talking about a TV-show. There has to be something to attract viewers stay on the channel. It's just the fact that watching a row of dozen less talented songs performed by a barbie clone in the tiniest miniskirt makes you appreciate anything different.

But there seems to be a different pattern for "charting" when it comes to singles versus albums here in Finland, and certainly when a single charts, it doesn't mean the album sells a lot.

To be honest, most singles sell only a couple of handfuls anywhere in the world. Singles are teasers and aimed for radioplay, not to make profit. The gold limit for a single here is only 5000 copies and even then, only a few releases reach it. In many countries there are no single charts available any more because - as you said - singles are irrelevant for the total sales of an album.

I think it's more a function of record label power in Finland (Spinefarm is owned by a major label so has that kind of muscle, and one person whose livelihood depends on Spinefarm selling albums complains about "Spinefarm metal" being popular).

But I do believe Finnish fans have far less knowledge about bands not on the big metal labels than fans almost anywhere else.

Spinefarm used to be a little shack, but in last five years it grew and took a lion's share of the metal market in Finland which drew the interest of international labels in metal, too. Lucky though, Spinefarm has maintained autonomy in their publishing policy.

Finnish fans in average know English pretty well, so I can't see how their knowledge about bands outside big labels is more limited than enywhere else in the wold. The world's metal community lives in the internet, not on streets.

I contend that Lordi brought more metal/rock fans to pop last weekend than they brought pop fans to metal or hard rock.

I still can't imagine a dedicated metalhead rushing to buy a Carola CD because of watching her sing in ESC. What I can imagine is Jane/Joe Doe who had no a clue about hard rock/metal getting interested in melodic hard rock/metal through this hype around Lordi. Maybe a few of them will stick longer. I'm not really expecting a flood to into metal because of Lordi, that would be an absurd idea.

But I was watching Eurovision last year with no "metal" interest in it ... my interest is mostly of the "point and laugh" category

... In fact, too many "rock" entries next year will make me less likely to watch it, I'd rather see all the pop tarts. Lordi's involvement and subsequent "atta boys" from people unfamiliar with either Lordi or Eurovision are what caused me to write about it.

For most of people ESC is just that: Point and laugh. Those who take it dead serious get laughed at as well. After all it is entertainment. Circus for masses.

These "skilled musicians" weren't playing their instruments when the cameras were on and that they had to bring somebody not in the band with them to do the vocal performance. Their props, costumes, and pyro have nothing to do with talent or skill. And they may not have asked permission, but they needed it to be in the contest - they were invited by whoever does the selecting for the Finnish national competition. You don't think that talent and musical skill had more to do with that than the strong image, pop-format songs, and being on a major label, do you?
In bold because I think it's the most thing I'm saying in this post.

They were not playing live at the ESC because everyone had to sing live on background tapes, but Lordi play live at normal gigs. There is no way a TV-company anywhere would allow even the biggest band in the world to perform all live in a show where 24 performances are pushed through the same stage in 2 hours. No way it's going to happen ever.

Lordi were invited among the dozen national qualifiers to fill a slot, because they are different and they are talented musicians. Actually according to the rules the ESC is a competiton for new unpublished compositions, not for performers. This very basic fact tends to be forgotten all the time if anybody with the media ever read the rules. The original idea is to find and bring up new songs, not new (or old) performers.

There is a big difference. I think that everyone here on PP board knows what I'm talking about, else they wouldn't be visiting here.

I don't understand this part. Are you suggesting that ProgPower attendees have a European self-image?

No. It was only a remark to the fact that I see people visiting this PP-board and attending to PP to be far more open minded and having better knowledge (and IMO better taste :Smug: ) in metal music in general than an average metalhead on both sides of the Atlantic.

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[Jim LotFP]

Just to clear things up, I can tell you that Lordi actually isn't on my Top 100 list of bands. I'm thinking more about the controversy their attendance in the ESC brought up, and what it means to the metal scene, if anything.

If "pop" refers to "popular" then you are right. Lordi sells pretty well these days, both CDs and gigs. Dan Brown or Madonna really don't rise too many eyebrows in Europe, all the religious hype around them is more of American [catholic] origin. Most people here only shrug when asked about them.

Totally off the point, but I was reading a lot about European-based bitching about the DaVinci Code. Did these people complain about the equally fictional events of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, when that secret society was trying to protect the secrets of the grail by any means necessary in that movie? AAHHHH IT'S FICTION YOU FUCKING FUCKTARDS AHHHHHHHHH.

To be honest, most singles sell only a couple of handfuls anywhere in the world. Singles are teasers and aimed for radioplay, not to make profit. The gold limit for a single here is only 5000 copies and even then, only a few releases reach it. In many countries there are no single charts available any more because - as you said - singles are irrelevant for the total sales of an album.

Which means quoting Reverend Bizarre's charting (they didn't hit the album chart, just the singles chart, right) is irrelevant to the overall conversation. Firebox singles actually chart yet when one of their bands played here, it was like watching a private concert. Two-thirds of the scheduled bands didn't bother showing up for it, haha.

Spinefarm used to be a little shack, but in last five years it grew and took a lion's share of the metal market in Finland which drew the interest of international labels in metal, too. Lucky though, Spinefarm has maintained autonomy in their publishing policy.

The Spinefarm brand name has survived from the shack days, but isn't the management completely different? It's the people, not the name, that make the difference I think. I know I don't keep up on that as much as I should, and I bet most people keep track of it less than I do. It would be interesting to actually study Spinefarm's growth and see if it's a lot like Opeth's, where the leaps in popularity had nothing to do with the music or how it was changing, but the label behind them.

Finnish fans in average know English pretty well, so I can't see how their knowledge about bands outside big labels is more limited than enywhere else in the wold. The world's metal community lives in the internet, not on streets.

I think that when more heavy metal is accessible through big tours and MTV and major press, it does create a class of more casual fan that doesn't have the time/doesn't see the need to dig very much deeper than everything being presented to them. American fans in the 90s, because nothing was easily accessible, had a lot more arcane knowledge of heavy metal if they had any at all.

There are always exceptions, and while I see more people here (town of 50000) wearing Dimmu Borgir or whatever shirts than I did in Atlanta (3+ million metro population), the depth of the conversation and "scene knowledge" when it comes to less-publicized bands can't compare. Anecdotal, yes, but that's all we've got to work with, isn't it?

I still can't imagine a dedicated metalhead rushing to buy a Carola CD because of watching her sing in ESC. What I can imagine is Jane/Joe Doe who had no a clue about hard rock/metal getting interested in melodic hard rock/metal through this hype around Lordi. Maybe a few of them will stick longer. I'm not really expecting a flood to into metal because of Lordi, that would be an absurd idea.

Man, bringing up Carola in a conversation should be the equivalent of making a Nazi comparison. You automatically lose the argument. That's the rules. That woman is EVIL.

Anyway, when I say metal fans are being brought to pop, that doesn't mean they are going to all go out and buy sugary teenybopper CDs. But it does mean more discussion about "who should be in next year's Eurovision?" Lots of talk and conjecture over which of their favorite bands should write a song fitting Eurovision standards, preparing to mime a performance on TV, and play that game like it's a good thing for heavy metal to bend over backwards to fit that kind of thing. Maybe a lot of people have fond memories of hair metal and lots of songs about parties or what have you, but that shit kept me away from heavy metal for a long fucking time and I'm no more ready to accept it now.

They were not playing live at the ESC because everyone had to sing live on background tapes, but Lordi play live at normal gigs. There is no way a TV-company anywhere would allow even the biggest band in the world to perform all live in a show where 24 performances are pushed through the same stage in 2 hours. No way it's going to happen ever.

It could happen. Not many of the acts actually used instruments on stage, and setting up two or three stages in the auditorium could allow full live performances. Lordi no doubt plays live in normal circumstances, but I bet they aren't worried that much about their backing vocals, either.

Lordi were invited among the dozen national qualifiers to fill a slot, because they are different and they are talented musicians. Actually according to the rules the ESC is a competiton for new unpublished compositions, not for performers. This very basic fact tends to be forgotten all the time if anybody with the media ever read the rules. The original idea is to find and bring up new songs, not new (or old) performers.

Hard Rock Hallelujah was unpublished at the time Lordi first performed for the Finnish spot, correct? With albums sometimes being written months before they are records and then months more pass before release, the idea of a song being "unpublished" being a block against bands writing and entering in songs they'll put on albums doesn't seem too big a deal. If Eurovision is seem as a valid general publicity avenue, I can see releases being delayed to not break Eurovision rules.

We'll know more about the likeliness of this when we know what kind of acts are in it next year. For all we know Lordi is a one-time fluke thing and I'm panicking over nothing. Which is fine by me, it's still a thought exercise and better than being caught completely off guard when something important does happen.

No. It was only a remark to the fact that I see people visiting this PP-board and attending to PP to be far more open minded and having better knowledge (and IMO better taste :Smug: ) in metal music in general than an average metalhead on both sides of the Atlantic.

There are many people here who have a rich and varied musical diet, that are knowledgeable about what they like and why they like it, and will always surprise people with what they are liking next. Awesome.

Then there are those who have a strict formula of what they want to hear (and around here it tends to be power and prog metal in its most banal forms), and accept nothing different. I'll argue that they are beneath the average metalhead in terms of contribution to the metal scene as a whole. They tend to talk about their favorite music in terms of genre and not in specific bands, and they also tend to complain about Devin Townsend's Progpower set in 2002. They probably lick toads and watch Cheaters to try and see how unfaithful people act, watch Dr. Phil in hopes he is discussing a problem in their life, like Horatio Caine more than Gil Grissom, think Patricia Arquette is a good actress, and watch Ghost Whisperer no matter how much of a cheesy ripoff they acknowledge it is just because Medium's not on anymore. Whether I really mean this exactly, if I'm exaggerating a bit in order to troll, or am complaining about my wife, I'll leave for you to decide.

 

[pollution]

Aki, is there still a lot of hand-wringing and embarassment in Finland over this? Apparently there was quite a bit of this at one time; it even made the news here.

Well, the embarrassment was more there before they won because not many thought they could pull the win off and a lot of people thought the whole country would be totally laughed at. Definitely a vast majority of people are now glad and especially proud of Lordi, CD stores are out of their stuff, they're ALL over the media and they're like praised as national heroes.

To give you some kind of an idea how HUGE they got, here's some silly video footage from the Lordi party in Helsinki held yesterday with 80 000 - 100 000 people attending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lkst47UHO4 (the band isn't on stage at this point, it's a karaoke host on the stage)

 

[Pellaz]

Thanks, Aki. Funny, though, how suddenly people changed their stripes after Lordi won. Have to wonder what would have happened in Finland had they lost.